How did Blizzard handle the TBC and Wotlk launches without layering?

[Fury-lethon (Fury)]

1. I said the fixes people suggest harm genuine players
2. You posted suggested fixes
3. I explain why those suggested fixes harm genuine players

Sounds like you are calling strawman because you are wrong and don’t know what else to say.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

• I said the fixes people suggest harm genuine players
• You posted suggested fixes
• I explain why those suggested fixes harm genuine players

1. You said layering is bad and should be removed because of exploits.
2. I provided fixes that would make layer switching a hassle intentionally to minimize those exploits.
3. You said my fixes cause too much of a hassle for people who want to switch layers.

Literally you are arguing cross purposes in an attempt to undermine opposition. Nobody can solve your problem if your problem is “Layering is wrong” because we are getting layering. Not maybe. Are.

You can either address the exploits, or accept them to support “genuine players” whoever the hell they are.

Arguing out of both sides of your face is intentionally obstructive.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

The servers always had problems with going down and super long queue times. I imagine the stress to their server was pretty high. It’s only necessary for the sake of their own servers and server cost.

Brian Dawson addressed this. They want the gameplay experience to break before the technical experience does. Meaning they want it to be impossible to play the game for gameplay reasons, before the server crashes or has massive queues.

Their system can support the vanilla model with far more players than Vanilla ever could, or even BfA ever could. Technical stress is not an issue any more.

[Fury-lethon (Fury)]

Unless they get rid of it or limit to starting zones, the problem lies with the design and being a beta doesn’t change that. You will still be able to change layers for nodes, rares, chests, and players and any fix to that would start harming genuine players.

That is the quote it is replying to. It’s addressing the exploits and that the fixes are just more harm so the problem lies in the design. Just because I point out that it’s flawed doesn’t mean I’m trying to undermine opposition it’s literally a fact that these flaws exist.

because we are getting layering . Not maybe. Are.

If you are so certain on this why are you spending so much time here arguing? Please leave and let those of us who want an alternative request Blizzard for one if you are just resorting to that stance.

“genuine players” whoever the hell they are.

Genuine players in this case are ones not trying to exploit and just playing the game normally. They would be heavily affected by inn/city/layer cooldown grouping restrictions. Innocents punished from exploiters on top of a system that already wasn’t in the original game.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

It’s addressing the exploits and that the fixes are just more harm so the problem lies in the design.

You literally said “Unless they get rid of it”

The exploits can be minimised and the alternative is to only have one layer’s worth of people on the server which would damage long term populations. My response was to fixing the exploits you raised.

If you are so certain on this why are you spending so much time here arguing?

Because echo chambers generate ill will when they’re ignored, and claim majority when they’re simply a small circle. Counter points to echo chambers should never be prevented.

Genuine players in this case are ones not trying to exploit and just playing the game normally. They would be heavily affected by inn/city/layer cooldown grouping restrictions. Innocents punished from exploiters on top of a system that already wasn’t in the original game.

Genuine players are not going to be switching groups every 10 minutes. Genuine players will group up with their friends and continue playing. Or they’ll group up with people on their layer that they meet, and never need to switch.

You’re presenting an extreme case of someone jumping from friend group to friend group constantly, as if it was the norm. The norm will be people grouping up short term, with the people they see around them on the same layer, or grouping up for longer sessions with friends or guildies.

While your case exists, catering to the extreme damages the average.

Making layer switching a hassle will prevent significant exploitation, while having minimal effects on the “genuine players” who are not trying to abuse the system. The average player isn’t hopping from friend group to friend group every 5 minutes, and is never more than a few minutes jog, or a hearth, from an Inn.

[Fury-lethon (Fury)]

You literally said “Unless they get rid of it”

The exploits can be minimised and the alternative is to only have one layer’s worth of people on the server which would damage long term populations. My response was to fixing the exploits you raised.

Read the rest of the quote. I said “Unless they get rid of it or limit to starting zones, the problem lies with the design” meaning the way it’s currently designed wouldn’t work unless limited to starting zones. I’m very open to ideas of fixing the exploits without harming players but like I also said all the suggestions and fixes people have said just harm players even more. I addressed this by responding to the fixes you suggested to the exploits I raised.

Because echo chambers generate ill will when they’re ignored, and claim majority when they’re simply a small circle. Counter points to echo chambers should never be prevented.

What ill will? How about meeting in the middle instead of trying to shut people down like that. People have suggested having a few non-layered servers while keeping the majority layered, this seems super reasonable. Also lots of people against layering meet in the middle by saying 1 week, 1-30 levels, or starting zones infrastructure as suggestions why can’t you try to meet there? You say you are against these echo chambers but you are one of the biggest layering posters out there trying to shut everyone down when you already seem confident it’s staying so why try to drown out these people just because you villianize them as ill willed.

Genuine players are not going to be switching groups every 10 minutes.

I don’t think you played the game very socially if this was the case. If you are crafting items for people (guildies,friends,strangers) you group to go find and trade them. If you are questing you usually invite those around you to help with the area and they or yourself drops the group afterwards and then it happens in the next spot. You might be starting a dungeon and there are lots of leaving/joining from unsure players or ones who have to go. So many examples of it happening within 10 minutes it’s just not a good/clean fix to stop exploits.

While your case exists, catering to the extreme damages the average.

Ironic since that’s what layering is and ironically these fixes are catering to the exploiting and damaging the average.

Making layer switching a hassle will prevent significant exploitation

Layering which is already a hassle being made more of a hassle is such a backwards solution. With all these problems how about they just don’t do layering because this is a recreation of vanilla WoW which didn’t have layering? So many problems stem from this and with it being so controversial and on the fence they should lean on the side of what was more like the classic experience. At the very least you should entertain the possibility of giving players a few non-layered servers? Can we at least agree on that?

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

How about meeting in the middle instead of trying to shut people down like that.

No Layering! Too many exploits!
x
x
Me: How about these fixes to exploits.
x
x
Layering is perfect! No exploits!

Seems like that is a meet in the middle position.

What ill will?

The more people convince each other that there’s no problems or issues with their plan, the more firmly it fixes itself in their mind. So when Blizzard turns around and either ignores them or tells them “No, there’s all these problems”, they rage because they’re so convinced that their idea is perfect. Echo chambers reinforce that.

Also lots of people against layering meet in the middle by saying 1 week, 1-30 levels, or starting zones infrastructure as suggestions why can’t you try to meet there?

If you go back and look, I’m on the record as saying that I’m ok with Starter Only Sharding, Starter + Barrens sharding, and Layering if the exploits are fixed. I’m only shutting down the ‘NO LAYERING! NO SHARDING!’ statements with reasoning, because we know we won’t be getting them.

At this point, we’re not getting Sharding either because Layering is too far developed, unless they find a serious technical flaw.

I don’t think you played the game very socially if this was the case.

I made genuine friendships by having long play sessions in groups.

If you are crafting items for people (guildies,friends,strangers) you group to go find and trade them.

Or you say “Meet on top of the bank” or “I’ll be at the Forge”.

If you are questing you usually invite those around you to help with the area and they or yourself drops the group afterwards and then it happens in the next spot.

And layering does not affect this at all.

You might be starting a dungeon and there are lots of leaving/joining from unsure players or ones who have to go.

No dungeon I’ve ever run was finished in 10 minutes. And people dropping group generally aren’t going to be immediately rushing to another group. If so, they can wait 10 minutes to switch, for the hassle of disappointing the first group.

Ironic since that’s what layering is and ironically these fixes are catering to the exploiting and damaging the average.

I disagree completely. Layering is to ensure that the core player group has a high population on each realm after the tourists leave. If they didn’t care about the core group, they’d spin up 1000 servers, then just merge them (which isn’t a Vanilla thing) after the tourists leave. I’d contend that that scenario is far more damaging to Classic (and inauthentic).

With all these problems how about they just don’t do layering because this is a recreation of vanilla WoW which didn’t have layering?

And we come full circle to the “My way is throw it all out”. Which isn’t going to happen.

At the very least you should entertain the possibility of giving players a few non-layered servers?

This would make the situation worse.

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

Um, beta was prior to November 23, 2004. Starting day one of retail does not prove anyone was in beta.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

Sure, but you didn’t need a sub for the Open beta that happened in the two weeks prior, and I’m not claiming I was in Closed beta.

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

LOL you know very well we were talking about closed beta. I have no doubt you were there from the beginning as, even though you have an obsessive need to argue semantics and correct people, you do at least know what you are talking about most of the time. This Xi’an dude obviously has some pathological lying issues and I was just pointing that out.

[Afflextion-thaurissan (Afflextion)]

i remember 4 hour server que’s to login and standing in low level dungeons to not afk out

[Heidene-kelthuzad]

I have a hard time believing that layer hopping wont be a thing in order to exploit resources, quest rewards, dodge pvp while leveling etc. People will always look for an easy way out to get to 60 as fast as they can.

I also think it will be a thing. There’s so much incentive to use the system while it lasts to efficiently powerlevel, gather, and so on.
It will also reinforce the feeling for those type of players especially, that rushing, no matter the cost, is worth it as the advantages are just too big to ignore and pass on while it’s there to be used.

It could also lead to people who aren’t actually looking to rush as much to end up rushing, seeing as they might struggle to level (especially if they are new to old WoW), and look for a way to make it go a little quicker.
Needless to say this newly introduced approach goes against the authenticity of the games design, because it will speed up the whole game as it unfolds within the first weeks/months, which normally wouldn’t be able to happen in this way since layering wasn’t in the og design, ever.

I’d also imagine those with the right skillset will write addons, or use 3rd party websites to allow for efficient layer hopping in whatever way possible, no matter the cost (losing out on the journey, cause there’s no time for it).

Are those addons gonna be bannable? Seeing as they are not authentic to the game (cause layering isn’t authentic ) and they provide a significant gameplay advantage.
If they are bannable… and players get punished for using the new system…wouldn’t that imply layering has serious enough negative effects on the games design that it requires to be dealt with in such a harsh manner? Hmm…

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

I probably have the beta files on an old HD, plus I have some SS from the end of Open Beta.

Should be able to pull data from an old HD after 15 years can’t you?

Are too many people at AQ going to justify layering again for you, because “it’s just such a miniscule amount of time, deal with it!”? It’s a slippery slope.

I would just about guarantee if they had something like layering tech back when they failed through the AQ event the network techs would have jumped on it faster than you could blink,lol.

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

LOL kudos to you if you still have your 15 year old hard drive from an ancient computer.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

I think I do , I played on my big blue beast from Dell, still haven’t recycled it thought the original HD from it could be in the closet, honestly only had one drive ever brick , and that was a pny SSD, though at least you could still read info from that.

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

Come to think of it I bet I do have all my old hard drives out in my shed. I wonder if hard drives survive Florida heat for 15 years.

[Studmuffyn-veknilash (Studmuffyn)]

ugh , heat depends, the humidity , i dunno, hard part would be needing adapters for the connections, depending on how new your current rig is.

[Arrowblight-jubeithos (Arrowblight)]

The server i was on never had really high queue times, the most was around 30mins to get in which game me enough time to eat and shower after work etc.

I can understand the reasons for layering but the implementation needs a serious look at. Blizzard needs to lock people into a layer like it’s been suggest ( it’s my suggestion i post a few weeks back) and merge the layers when the game pop dies down,if it does)

Being prompted for Shard/Layer change

I have a better idea, Have servers that displays in the realm list as follows; eg Uldum 1 Uldum 2 Uldum 3 Each server is broken into X amount of layers(and locks once server cap is reached) that you need to pick to play on and will be merged later on down the line. Each layer is for it self, you cannot transfer any way to the different layers on each realm. If one layer is still full at the end of the period then it breaks off into a server of it self and is given a new name. It’s a bette…

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

I’ve only had laptops for the last 7 years. I doubt any of that old stuff would plug in.