How did Blizzard fail so hard?

[Katiera-moon-guard (Katiera)]

@Elathaah-stormrage

willingness to accept a faction war

players where whining about no war in warcraft, they always do, I mean right now there are people whining about how shadowlands has no alliance vs horde war, like its crazy even after bfa people still want the most awful part of the story.

[Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Katiera-moon-guard

You cannot, who ever attacks first will become the villian in a setting where the status quo must be maintained

Then make it unclear who attacked first, or what counted as the first attack. Make it so that each side felt they had no choice.

[Katiera-moon-guard (Katiera)]

Lol no choice in a war where just people die and nothing gets done, SO FUN.
Its almost endearing that you dont think the players wont argue about who was in the right leading to the same toxicity we have today.

ect broken shore

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

Call it tinfoil hat thinking but BFA from a game design standard was such a garbage fire I honestly believe they just wrote it off entirely.

The entire story focused around getting people into their Shadowlands starting positions. N’Zoth and Wrathion are the main characters of the final patch. Does that feel like a natural conclusion to events from the Burning of Teldrassil? 8.3 felt like I sat on the remote and changed the channel and I was grateful for it.

There’s good work in here. I think all the questlines in Zuldazar and Kul Tiras are really solid and paint nations that feel alive and have complex, nuanced issues that you try to help solve. The Allied Races are fun and if nothing else offer the possibility for very different stories to be told by the factions down the line.

But overall this feels like a filler episode that inexplicably killed a bunch of major characters. Slyvanas was the main villain of BFA and instead of resolving our grievances with her she flies off on an evil fart cloud yelling “SEQUEL HOOK”, and then a squid’s thrown in our face to distract from how disappointing this non-ending was.

[Karserd-ragnaros (Karserd)]

@Benedikt-emerald-dream

But overall this feels like a filler episode that inexplicably killed a bunch of major characters. Slyvanas was the main villain of BFA and instead of resolving our grievances with her she flies off on an evil fart cloud yelling “SEQUEL HOOK”, and then a squid’s thrown in our face to distract from how disappointing this non-ending was.

Its star wars TLJ all over again, all the old plots axed instead of tying them nicely, change the beat of the story to try to finish this bushfire and several new plots setup for the next expansions.

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

Well let’s hope SL turns out to be The Mandalorian then.

[Grazzbèk-wyrmrest-accord (Grazzbèk)]

I don’t think Blizzard has ultra-WC fans like Filoni and Favreau for SW in it to give fans of the franchise a breath of fresh air.

Of course I don’t raid anymore either because M+ is required for everything

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

A warchief with a secret, evil plan launches a sneak attack on an unsuspecting Alliance in Kalimdor and wipes out a major population center. The two sides engage in an escalating war that drags in new allies and wreaks havoc upon their lands. The Horde commits a bunch of terrible war crimes. Horde leadership is increasingly disillusioned with the warchief and begin conspiring to undermine him/her. The warchief attempts to eliminate the non-loyal. The horde rebels finally forge a secret pact with the Alliance to march on Orgrimmar and overthrow the despot. At the end, there is a return to status quo.

Even more:

https://imgur.com/a/dASSREm

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

Go back and look at all the threads on this forum from that time.

Unfortunately, we can’t. They’re all gone with the old forums.

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

Are they so out of touch with their own story that they somehow were oblivious to how closely these narratives matched?

I don’t know. They are now claiming that they made Sylvanas’s story parallel Garrosh’s deliberately, but they started out by saying she “would not be Garrosh 2.0,” so which do we believe?

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

Are they utterly ignorant of feedback from their own fans, on their own forums?

It’s worth noting that they also ignored a lot of screamed feedback on Azerite armor, before finally admitting that it didn’t work. I’m still waiting for the admission on the story. (No, “It was too subtle” isn’t an admission.)

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

I think these forums absolutely highlight that Warcraft does. It’s my favorite fantasy world and one I always came back to in my mind, even when I wasn’t playing it for the better part of a decade.

I think modern WoW’s failure is focusing on the big characters. In those 7 years I never thought back to Thrall or Slyvanas that much. But the factions? The world? It’s odd to say but I still say ‘Tarren Mill’ or ‘Crossroads’ in the same tone I’d used to describe actual towns I’ve been to. I’ve memories of those places tied in with memories of people - and what is a town in your memory if not that?

I don’t mean to get dark but a few years back I lost a very close friend. One who I was friends with before, during and after I played WoW. And in recounting fond memories with a mutual close friend who’d played with us - experiences in Azeroth would flow in and out of the conversation as naturally as IRL adventures we’d had through childhood to adulthood dod.

That’s a very powerful feeling and not one I can say any other franchise has caused. I also don’t think I’m the only one who has feelings like that wrapped up in this nonsense. Hell, some met their spouse on this silly game.

I’d bet my life there’s people who got into the game design and storytelling industries because of WoW. And I sincerely hope they get the reins some day. It’s just less likely because the video game industry is basically a layer of hell of which Activision is inarguably an Arch Devil.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

WoW is basically a mash-up of the WC1&2 Alliance with the WC3 Horde.

It is now, but it wasn’t that way for the first few expansions. The Alliance used to have a lot more grey in it, back in the Vanilla through Wrath era.

When was it that Blizz actually announced a “more lawful good” direction for the Alliance? I think that’s when things changed. I definitely remember them coming out and saying they were moving in that direction, and I remember at the time worrying that it was going to make the Horde look bad. I think it was when the Captain America vs Wolverine comparison was made.

@Elathaah-stormrage

those writing for the Horde have no understanding of Horde players. I mean they seem surprised at how much Horde players hated Teldrasil and playing the villains.

They had some inkling, which is why they prepared the “Old Soldier” cinematic. I just don’t know why they thought that would help.

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

But Blizzard was determined that another Warchief had to go full super villain, and here we are.

One of the things I really want to know is how they thought people would react to this story. Why they thought making everyone hate one of their most popular characters would be a good move. How they expected Horde players to enjoy being told their entire play experience had been happening under a bad system of government. How they expected Alliance players to deal with the massive blow of Teldrassil, which Blizzard went out of their way to rub in with that “rescue 900 people” quest. Seriously, how did it play out in their heads?

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

Then make it unclear who attacked first, or what counted as the first attack.

They actually promised us before BfA that both sides would be able to say the other side started it.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Katiera-moon-guard

You cannot, who ever attacks first will become the villian in a setting where the status quo must be maintained

So we agree that the Stormpike Vanguard are the villains of Alterac Valley?
And Night Elves are the villains in the orc/night elf wars?

[Elathaah-stormrage]

@Carmageddon-bloodsail-buccaneers

On my Horde toons, I don’t even mind playing the villain…from the Alliance perspective. I just don’t want to also be a villain from the Horde perspective. You can do a war narrative where both sides have legitimate beefs. Blizzard just chooses not to.

Well, they would have to do an honest job of making the Alliance villains from the Horde perspective to. I was reaching my breaking point of anything the Horde does being trumpeted by Alliance NPCs (and even a few Horde) while everything the Alliance does passing by and being forgotten.

This relates to the “They were out of touch, point”. I wasn’t the only one noticing this. But, on top of that, they still thought Horde players would like the villian bat?

[Elathaah-stormrage]

@Zuleika-hyjal

They had some inkling, which is why they prepared the “Old Soldier” cinematic. I just don’t know why they thought that would help.

I really don’t think they did. It was just the story arc and they had no idea it would come in the context it did.

I mean, they capped off his arc by having him explicitly link the Horde’s legacy to the evil Legion-corrupted Horde. Then they had Thrall say that everything was his fault, to someone who had ordered the ethnic cleansing of his people. They clearly thought presenting the Horde as villains would work.

[Duristrano-tichondrius]

BFA was a web of so many ideas that inevitably turned into a clump of knots. This was supposed to be a faction war expansion yet 3/4 raids were old god related.

edit~ 4/5, forgot that mini raid

[Zega-black-dragonflight (Zega)]

1. The main problem in my eyes is wanting to take the chance of creating a better story of something that was widely disliked before

2. They work backwards from end to start, idk about y’all but I personally think that’s a stupid direction to build a story

3. It feels like they’re still in that season 8 GoT hype train of wanting to subvert expectations, and man…are they bad at it, mainly due to trying too hard that it’s obvious

4. Way too much shock content, or things purposely made to tug at your heart strings, it gets real annoying once you realize there might not be a pay off for all of this heartache.

[Katiera-moon-guard (Katiera)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

And Night Elves are the villains in the orc/night elf wars?

The orcs attacked first in vanilla

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Katiera-moon-guard

The orcs attacked first in vanilla.

the nelves attacked first in WC3.

[Jellex-wyrmrest-accord (Jellex)]

Treng, you know being factually correct matters for little when arguing with Katiera.

[Ardmccloud-frostmourne]

It is easier to destroy than it is to create.

Blizzard simply took the path of least resistance even if it didn’t make sense.

This will continue into Shadowlands. Have no doubt of that.

[Darrow-gilneas]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

I love defending Ashenvale from Night Elf invaders.

I’m sorry what? How does one defend land from invaders when they are in fact invading said land and attempting to take it from it’s original inhabitants?