Translation: “The canon only matters if it’s in the game.”
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Which even if we follow, Alliance is still OP built up and Horde has… tacos? And Wild Gods with cooler personalities? Better aesthetics and more diversity of aesthetic?
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Good of you to finally admit that the two cancel each other out. Ignoring that the Loa are by and far way more fleshed out in game than the Wild Gods.
The Horde’s biggest advantage is the meta advantage that dictates Horde victories always get the lion’s share of the budget for screen time, commissioned art, and anything else that can be put front and center in front of a player’s eyeballs.
Resources and development time for 8.1, the patch of the Kaldorei “Fist pump moment” in Darkshore, was taken away to go back to Catacylsm questing in Ashenvale in order to produce an entire new cinematic as a “bug fix” to quest where a single Orc riding a Kodo is proven to be a better archer than an entire squad of Night Elf Sentinels.
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So I have a few examples that reinforce the DBZ power levels that do appear in game.
First, we have Malfurion putting up the wispwall, which is defeated by the Horde but only because Sylvanas barely can get a few people through (Including the PC) to distract him. Later in that same scenario, we find Malfurion ahead by 30% or something in his duel with Sylvanas. It’s presented as if she (Our most powerful character at the time) is losing. He also had a cinematic of punking a group of Horde with no effort. Not his biggest flex, but one nonetheless.
Then we have Tyrande’s more recent example in the Maw. I don’t know if you’ve done the NF campaign yet, but you quite literally follow a massive trail of bodies with Shandris while looking for her. She is also just rolling around Torghast, a place that even Jaina could not escape and doing just fine. We can compare this to Baine, who managed to defeat a good 11-13 Mawsworn before being dragged back to Torghast during the Maw tutorial questline. She also has a cinematic of casually bodying Nathanos.
The last one I want to draw attention to is Blademaster Telaamon. During the Horde intro to the battle of Dazar’alor they are drawn into the swamps of Nazmir to fight the diversion the Alliance set. One of the first things you do is rescue the future Darkspear Chieftain from Telaamon, who is purging Rokhan. You succeed and Telaamon gets away. Near the finale of the questline you corner Telaamon in Hir’eek’s lair alongside Rokhan and two Zandalari Witch Doctors. Telaamon defeats all three Trolls with a single hit and leaves the PC to finish the job. Rokhan, a model Shadow Hunter and future Darkspear leader, is defeated by a dude you talk to maybe twice on Argus.
Those are just the ones I recall off the top of my head without including Jaina or the Vindicaar.
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It’s funny that there is a continued habit of throwing out canon to try and solidify an argument.
Apparently:
WoW cinematics <— only canon that matters
WoW quest text
WoW NPC Dialogue
RTS
Novels/short stories
Comics
Dev interviews
Blizzard staff tweets
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Malfurion killing people left, right and center by his lonesome in the Darkshore cinematic.
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Anduin raising an army from the dead/disabled in the SoL cinematic
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Jaina in same cinematic as you mentioned
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There is also that one time in Darkshore during the cataclysm where Malf in his own words:
“It is taking every ounce of my power to keep Darkshore’s entire landmass from being shattered and swept into the ocean…”
I might be forgetting some. Regardless, I can see Sylvanas taking down multiple foes on her own. I can see neutral Go’el/Thrall at his peak keep a land mass from breaking. Baine ? Vol’jin? Rokhan? warrior Thrall? …not even in the same league.
I’ve left out Tyrande because indeed, I agree that until now, her power was never really shown in game so much as implied. The last impressive feat I recall her doing was in WC3.
There is a power disparity that we can see in game. Maybe there’s a book where Baine and the others I mentioned are doing great feats but I never heard of it and in game they never projected that kind of power
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No one is claiming they aren’t canon but nice strawman.
The argument has always been that those other things you slashed out are not anywhere near as effective at cementing themselves in people’s memories as what is shown on screen through gameplay, cinematics, and art.
And that is backed up science.
Edit:
https://www.t-sciences.com/news/humans-process-visual-data-better
https://www.seyens.com/humans-are-visual-creatures/
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No, only that they don’t matter.
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… This is not an advantage over
- laser beam space ship
- Deus-Jaina ex Machina
- Gnomish engineering
- Anduin mass rez’ing (and Alliance being superior in Light magic)
- Dark Iron Dwarf shamanism being shown as superior to Orc, Troll, and Tauren Shamanism
- Alliance characters being superior/central in Shadow magic than Horde characters (Alleria, Void Elves, Moira)
The response to “the Alliance is narratively empowered and built up more than the Horde” is not “there are more Horde cinematics”
This is a dumb argument.
She’s just mad Kyalin agreed with four of my examples, which is four more than the Horde has.
“The Horde’s biggest advantage is the meta advantage” like what kind of asinine idiotic response, NEFPAs gonna NEFPA tho
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That is not true. The villain Horde was a narrative choice. It was one Blizzard thought was good and so put a lot of time and resources into. For a number of reason this is not how it felt to a lot of Horde players.
Or you know, maligns you for having the audacity to defend yourself. Like how multiple NPCs (quest givers and others) do the Alliance player for having the gall to fight the Horde. The non-Alliance NPCs in the game treat the Alliance players exactly like the Horde. Alliance PCs get plenty of the war is bad and you shouldn’t fight the Horde.
People need to stop repeating that tripe. Blizzard has repeatedly demonstrated that they think the Horde and Alliance are equal or roughly equal. As stated, the Alliance gets LOTS of scolding for having the temerity to fight the Horde. NPCs constantly repeat the ‘war is bad, you shouldn’t be fighting’ line to the Alliance. And for all the ‘bad talk’ the Horde get from Alliance NPCs they have to work with, it still has yet to match what the Alliance PCs have gotten when working with Horde.
First, like I said: I don’t want it to be a forced thing. I want the Horde to do it because the Horde chooses to do it.
Second: It doesn’t even have to be something the Horde PC does. It just has to be what we see the Horde in general doing.
Literally all the Horde has done to change is it is now a council. Okay…that means what? All of the Horde (including now council members) followed the evil Warchief, at least for a time. Who is to say the council will do things differently. And since they are clearly not doing anything different than the last time they were ‘totally good now’ you have to see why it means nothing.
It goes back: Actions speak louder than words.
Right now we have words. The same words we have had before. We don’t have actions.
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Doesn’t get used.
Already debunked
Alliance always has been
Again there are other elements than Fire.
We’ve seen Moira do jack all, Alleria is a Mary Sue sure, the Void Elves get sucked into their own portals to who knows where by the Goblins.
Debunked to you, Kyalin agreed with the example, stay mad tho lol
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I mean, we do have a counter for the Vindecaar, but that would require Blizz to actually focus on the BEs when they aren’t being tacked on to Alliance plots. People really forget that the BEs as a culture had enough Arcane Tech aptitude to not only bring down the Exodar, but also cannibalize and retrofit Tempest Keep for their own personal Mana consumption uses. Its just … they (like all Horde) are hyper neglected, and would mean that the Alliance might lose another “thing”. But, conceptually, the Horde has a counter for it.
Regardless, the weaker faction was forced to punch outside its weightclass in BfA, with Blizz not wanting to put in the work to actually justify how. So, they hit the Alliance and its reps with the stupid and nerf sticks hard. Its a very “have one’s cake and eat it too” situation. They get to have the Horde be the villains, but not actually put in the work to explain how we’re the least bit threatening.
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Two weeks, gods. No I don’t think they’d need to fire anyone. Just get off the M E T A L kick. It’s clear they know how to write in a different direction, they just got to do it.
So I guess stay whinging my friends huh?
Why yes. Not killing off Vol’jin for a “fantastic” tale of the Horde finding itself after going Stupid Evil for the second time isn’t hard. Literally just gotta not do the stupid.
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I have never hidden my Alliance lean. I’d still be posting on my original toon if I actually played her this expansion Do a search for Daiza on this form. You’ll still see me saying “whinging” a lot. Thought I was being pretty obvious with it too.
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There’s lots of rebuilding I want for the Forsaken. My dream scenario is still Forsaken rebuilding Theramore because it’s just sitting there not being used and it being rebuilt with Forsaken architecture that isn’t being used is far more interesting (TO ME) than a small instanced spot in Lordaeron. You’ll also notice I wanted similar for night elves in Duskwood around that Emerald Tree, but that is far less interesting than a rebuilt Theramore.
But sure, if the result of this is just more whinging, then a small instanced part of Lorderon then as their faction will probably be the best for them. I’d still like to see Theramore rebuilt by the Forsaken though with Derek and Calia parked there so nobody will cry about them being at the actual Forsaken home and Theramore itself is put to more interesting use than being a place for Jaina to have a cry. Everybody wins except nobody wins because people will certainly find a way to cry about that too.
Side note but it feels like at some point a few years ago the entire internet got mind control satellite beamed to start using “whinging” over “whining” and I feel like my calibration is off because I never got the memo. D:
No, this wasn’t even a thing until Kyalin showed up and said “Not all canon is equal” and gave a speech generalizing how people should be impacted by the story. Which would be fine, if she gave any weight to canon sources that weren’t WoW cinematics.
These most recent posts and pretty much all others shows that canon sources are being entirely dismissed because they aren’t cinematics.
Imagine if the court system only allowed video evidence during trials.
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If the rest of the world had been doing it I sure missed it lol. I started using it here because I was watching some Game of Thrones clips on Youtube and I happened to get to that part while I was reading this fourm. It was like the gods had given me a very easy gag.
Then like every bad joke, I just never stopped lol
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Does it matter that she doesn’t when the end result is the same even to Kyalin themself, contrary to the wishes of Elluriah
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Hmm … I dunno. BfA was weird conceptually even on that front. They put no real work into setting up how the Horde could endanger the Alliance, but still tasked us with being the aggressors none-the-less. They knew enough about what the Horde is supposed to represent to make all those amazing cinematics, but none of that was allowed to be more important than their need for Sylvie to settup SLs. Frankly, BfA sort of feels like what it is for the Horde. We were a plot-device and vehicle to settup another future villain and expansion, with little consideration on how to get us to that point … or what to do with us after. Which is why we’re jumping headfirst into another “escape from the consequences” expansion here in SLs.
While the Alliance of course gets hit ruthlessly too, one of the major issues with these so called “Horde Expansions” is they tend to come entirely at the Faction’s expense. With minimal positives, and massive negatives, that Blizz has repeatedly shown they’ll throw bandaids on at most. Its resources “using” the Horde … not resources “for” the Horde. Which, sadly, is why I think Blizz is being genuine (in a twisted way) when they say they “Like Writing the Horde”. They simply feel more free to do what they want with the Horde as a plot-device than they do with the Alliance; without worrying about the consequences of that.
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Nothing we do on this board matters. That’s why I try to spread the good news of pancakes as much as I can.
https://giphy.com/gifs/breakfast-food-XCVm7xxtEolwc
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