It’s a tricky thing, and their lack of resources put a burden on the tauren at the time. But like I said trade is virtually impossible at this point.
I kind of think that the trade ended with the Cataclysm war, but Garrosh I know did make some smartish moves during the time. While the Southfury river was (somehow) polluted, Baine’s short story makes it clear that it can still water crops - things that based on Garrosh’s own short story, was in short supply before his tenure.
I’m also going to head this one off - again: yes you can farm in a desert if you are bordering a freshwater river. The Hohokam did so here in Phoenix thousands of years ago with hand tools and without the wheel using the salt river. Today, we still use many of their canal paths for modern irrigation, and the valley has plenty of locally-irrigated farming. I see it every time I take the 101 past Scottsdale, or go to visit Gilbert. It’s all there - laughing at this claim that you can’t farm in a desert.
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Back in Vanilla/Classic, though, the Alliance wasn’t “better” than the Horde. They had different, and in some ways less immediately obvious problems–but not fewer or less serious ones, IMO.
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It’s not just farming that’s the issue with durotar, the orcs are shown to have a need for lumber and tree farming would be a thing that takes time if you’re growing new trees but I assume the horde of old has negotiated hunting rights within ashenvale to help supplement their protein outside of them also trying to raise their own animals.
Hey Velskar, watch me pull a demon out of a portal. Don’t worry, everything should be fine.
Ooops, wrong portal.
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Untreated lumber in a dry environment doesn’t seem like the best material if you ask me. Again, speaking from a desert environment - we have this thing called dryrot, which destroys wood in short order. That’s why adobe and later brick and stucco were so popular out here. It’s why you have the “southwest style” of roof.
That said, Azshara was supposed to resolve the lumber issue - and if it can’t do it, then the problem isn’t that they don’t have enough lumber, the problem is that they’re too wasteful for any amount to ever be “enough”. As for hunting rights in Ashenvale - I don’t see on what planet the Kaldorei would be willing to negotiate with them on anything.
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I’m talking about when the horde and night elves had friendly enough trade relationships before the end of wrath, when the night elves cut off trade entirely cause they blamed the whole horde for the Wrathgate situation. And then trade became even harder to negotiate after twilight cultist framed the orcs, That’s the catalyst that garrosh used for his invasion of Ashenvale.
That seems out of place when discussing the Horde’s current economics.
Well you where also referencing cataclysm on their trade, I was using it as a reference on how they had original trade agreements with the night elves, after overthrowing garrosh Vol might have been able to re-establish before his death but bfa destroyed any chance of the orcs ever striking up any trade so ergo the orcs will more than likely face another famine.
Trade is the lifeblood of an economy.
If you mean international trade, not necessarily. It helps in terms of taking advantage of competitive advantage, but domestic production does tend to make up an outsized proportion of a nation’s economic activity.
At any rate, I referenced Cataclysm because that was the last time we got information that told us about the Orc’s domestic economy. To our knowledge, no agreements were renewed, and it doesn’t make sense for agreements to be made now - so it’s the best yardstick that I have to measure things with.
There are a couple of other elements that I think are being discarded here - Gazlowe’s position in both the Horde and the Steamwheedle cartel should set up a good trading relationship. They also have the benefit of being next to an ocean, which is great for trade.
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Orgrimmar is only a short distance away from Bladefist Bay, I wouldn’t be surprised if various types of seafood make up a good portion of the population’s food supply. There’s even the possibility of aquaculture, assuming that a good site can be found. Given how many of the Horde constituent nations have coastal access (basically everyone except the Mulgore Tauren), there should be a wide variety of recipes and techniques for preparing seafood in Orgrimmar.
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Would having Horde druids and shaman play a role in making Hyjal and Nordrassil into a new racial capital for the Night Elves be of use? Perhaps the first act of a reborn Vol’jin and Ysera would be to recruit the world’s nature based spellcasters and combine their efforts to regrow Hyjal and purify Lordaeron?
As a bonus it would remove the stains Sylvanas left on the world. “The filth of Sylvanas is washing away.”
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I don’t know about the others, but again I really, really, really don’t like the idea of my faction rival backhanding me, and then patting me on the head and trying to “make up for it” - I don’t like the idea of being pitied and infantilized like that. I’d prefer to just hit them back given that this is and will continue to be a faction rivalry.
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This.
Pretty much why I liked Tyrande’s response to Thrall in Shadows Rising, as their conversation basically went:
Thrall: We’re trying to make up for what we did. We’re trying to be better.
Tyrande: Not good enough. Go kill Sylvanas and then we’ll talk.
The problem is that if we are going to address the Horde’s redemption we have to also address the elephant in the room that is the War of Thorns and their involvement. To simply try and brush it under the rug and do nothing about its repercussions would be a grave mistake, in my opinion. Especially if we return to the status-quo of factional conflict. I would like for the Horde to feel heroic, and part of a heroic outlook is attempting to do right by those you have wronged. It would also go a long way in confirming that it was Sylvanas who instigated the slaughter, and if not pressured by the threats of war, the Horde would have never have done it to begin with. That is was indeed, a betrayal and deception on part of their leadership.
But as you say it is a difficult thing. I too would like to see the Night Elves be triumphant and bold against the Horde. I also want to see some genuine healing occur for them and the victims of BFA, Horde included as well. It is a truly distressing situation Blizzard has stumbled into for the narrative.
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For the Night Elves, as far as I am concerned, the healing needs to come in the form of healing the notion that they are capable against their opponents and rivals - and that is what the Horde is within the context of the faction rivalry. This sets up opportunities for PVP content in the future.
Regarding the Horde feeling heroic, I understand where you’re going, but I also think that the Horde needs to feel heroic on its own terms, rather than heroic from an Alliance point of view. The method that I prefer to look at in this regard is having them being as presented as heroic in that they will now protect their civilization - which will require content to make the Horde relatable, and appear to be something worth preserving, and then having the Alliance in some way threaten it (but, before we get there: no, I am not proposing that they end up being successful in razing cities or destroying things). Again, I think the conflict that I lined out above is a good launchpad for that. But I also think there is room to incorporate the need to protect the Horde from threats such as PVE enemies and the like.
Getting there though isn’t something that I completely know how to do though.
Is a botanical invasion okay? Only they would have to kill … um … everyone except the night elves. Then the night elves will save everyone. Hmm.
Most likely, such a victory will be attributed to the Ancients. The pride will not be restored, but there will be “why do we need another extension of the NE, in which we were also humiliated?”
I think Kyalin and Vandraeda make good points about the world, and I feel this leads into a point I think may be hard for me to properly express, but would be an important one in any rebuilding effort for the Horde, or other factions.
Part of the problem for a long while, imo, is that the World has become a bit too shallow in the stories that are being told, or conveyed via the game / greater lore. There’s been some recent effort to fix this, with things like Exploring the Eastern Kingdoms, but largely speaking the World of Azeroth, and the races that inhabit it don’t get fleshed out in the complex ways that contribute to a more complicated worldview for the narrative. Take for instance, what you were saying about the Orcs, Trolls, or Tauren. Each of these races have had massive cultural upheavals in the past decade that have completely redefined the way they interact with the world in fundamental ways. The city of Orgrimmar has undergone one of the fastest growths from construction to it’s current role as a multicultural hub for a world power in less than a single human/orc lifespan. Entire continents, such as Pandaria, have undergone the kind of revolutionary changes to the status quo that could topple or rebuild entire power structures and nations. The World is supposed to be vast, far more so than could ever be properly portrayed in even as large a playable world as the one in the game today. Yet through these periods of change and cultural shift we often only get to view it through the tiniest of pinholes, often as the case has been since Cataclysm, through the perspective of leaders, paragons, and villains of each race. Hardly the ground floor perspective that would be so helpful in getting a grip on the World’s eye view for the citizen or soldier of each faction. This focus on paragons / pariahs of each race cause the perspective on those races to become distorted. We don’t know the daily life of a peon or grunt, but only see the Orc narrative through the eyes of Saurfang or Thrall or Garrosh. The last time the narrative focused on the thoughts of random human and orc citizens was in Cataclysm, and in those the focus was entirely tied up to the immediacy of crisis, not in the tribulations of normal life. In turn, it becomes hard to consider the Horde and Alliance as entities made up of tens of thousands (Or hundreds of thousands? Millions? Population numbers are hard to define here) citizens who each have to make their own mark upon the world, and toil through their own problems. In turn, we can only turn our eye to the movements of grand plays of the superpowers themselves, which leaves us unable to consider the components that comprise them.
All this is to say, that we know so little of the Culture of the Horde, and the Day to day lives that we can not say with certainty what sort of improvements or troubles come to them. In regards to the average Orc citizen, for example, I would caution to say that the existence of the Horde has provided them far more opportunity, stability, and safety than had it not existed, and much the same can be true of the numerous races that comprise it. Though, the fact that I can’t say so with much certainty or proof to back up my claim leads me back to the problem of not knowing enough about the citizenry of the Horde.
While I’d love for the worst transgressions of BFA to be wiped from the books by some arbitrary means, I do not think the Horde is unsalvageable if it is not. It is however, as many have pointed out, extremely difficult and would require writing a world that the current writing team seems uninterested in pursuing. The Horde needs to be shown affecting changes, to their own neighbors and citizenry that could not be achieved in the same way that the Alliance could do so. Interactions with Quillboar, Centaur, Harpies, Grimtotem, and Ogres for instance could all produce outcomes (through diplomacy or hostility) that the Alliance would be unable, or uninterested to pursue on their own. Likewise showing more of the Horde citizenry, and weaving a more complex narrative between those races can provide the rebuilding of the Horde that is needed. This does not need to be portrayed as the Horde trying to make amends, but instead as the Horde, in the process of forging a better future for itself, improves the quality of life in Azeroth as a whole. Lifting up both the Horde, and showing what sort of positive influence it can have upon all of Azeroth, instead of being used yet again as the blunt cudgel of narrative convince that it is.
As a few examples, I would like to look at the Zandalari, and the Elven races. There is a certain … animosity there (to put it very lightly) that has existed for the last ten thousand years. Yet in the Horde, for the first time, you have Zandalari, Sin’dorei, Jungle and Forest Trolls, and Shal’dorei all sitting together at the same table, holding equal positions of authority. Even in Shadows Rising we saw the Elves support the Zandalari in their hour of need, and Queen Talanji both recognizing and appreciating that fact. Delving deeper into those long divided relations and showing that the Horde can mend over ten thousand years of animosity, or at least begin the process is in itself a milestone achievement that makes all of Azeroth stronger.
As another example, of what could also be, look to the Yaungol of Pandaria. They have long held tense relations to the Pandaren, and this has caused strife and bloodshed over the last ten thousand years. Yet with the Tauren, Tanuka, and Highmountain there potentially lives a chance at the Tauren showing the merits of their more peaceful ideals, and reach out to the Yaungol. Perhaps ushering them into some grand Shu’halo confederacy within the Horde and helping to ease and calm relations in Pandaria. (While also bolstering the strength of the Horde substantially) While this could be done to just make the Horde more violent, it could also be written in a way that could show that the Horde, in being able to embrace more violent tendencies without being ruled by them could show that path to others easing conflicts and forming stronger bonds.
Again, I hope I’m explaining this correctly, as it is somewhat hard for me to express this the way I want, but having the Horde’s narrative scope expanded, and more detail put into their people, lands, and citizens could help show the value of the Horde by showing the value of the members who dwell within it. That what makes the Horde essential is the collection of races that it has brought together and collectively lifted each other up into a World Power can affect long lasting positive change on Azeroth as a whole.
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It’s ok; I honestly don’t think Blizzard knows how to get there, either.
A large part of this goes back to Korzuk is getting at; Blizzard doesn’t seem interested—or at least they weren’t during BfA—in the day-to-day affairs of either faction (essentially, as establishing them as people).
Players have brought up Game of Thrones for comparison with the Burning, which I think is spot-on; most recently Blizzard’s writing team essentially seems to be gripped by the “Hollywood Syndrome”:
“Oh, players don’t care about establishing culture and having their characters be actual people in this world, they just wanna blow #$%^ up! They care about big, flashy, dramatic 'splosions and whatnot, not this ‘fostering relationships’ crap!”
Didn’t work in BfA for the same reason it didn’t work back in Mists with Theramore: a lot of players do still want to explore the world that we were introduced to back in Warcraft III and Vanilla. We do want to feel like our actions matter, like we’re people in this world.
But of course, as long as Blizzard insists on writing PvE content as if its playerbase is entirely made up of hardcore PvPers, nothing’s really going to change, now is it?
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I mean, I was an endgame PVPer - I don’t think that approach, of taking faction war content and putting in PVE settings like a warfront that I can’t technically lose, or in a raid on a continent that I don’t care about - speaks to what I want to see in gameplay or in the tie-in lore. So I would object to the idea that they’re making this content as though it was for me.
Regarding the rest of your post - I agree, it feels like they’re generally disinterested in writing about the cultures, the lands, and the people that make up the world, of Warcraft.
… and if the writers don’t want to write about the World of Warcraft, then I would venture to say that they shouldn’t be working on a project called World of Warcraft.
But for those who would in theory then replace them - I think that Korzuk’s post would be an excellent place to start. Again, I wish I could like a post multiple times, because this one completely nails it.
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