So would I; that was my point. Because as you rightly say,
Or to put it another way: they’re more interested in hyping up the flashy, dramatic, explosive side of it, rather than the culture and the storytelling aspects.
They care more about the Warcraft than the World, which is more than a little hypocritical considering:
A) You can’t have one without the other
B) It was the story and the emphasis on turning enemies into friends that served as the entire background narrative to begin with
Blizzard had their chances.
Darkshore on 8.1, sure we routed them but they rezed several nelves in front of you without you being able to do squat only at the cost of a valkyrie that doesnt matter now because sylvanas has several already and we dont care about them narratively speaking.
The night elf quest on ardenweald, sure you rescued some of the souls but you had to obliterate an amorphic mass of them, this couldve been a huge moment for night elves where we wouldve been shown once again to be favored by elune.
Tyrande was able to save their souls because of the night warrior, every other soul (except trolls) is rotting in the maw except yours because the power of your goddess and high priestess! but nope suffer more, even bwonsamdi was able to save troll souls, i bet the zandalari trolls feel fine since all their souls skipped the maw.
The death of nathanos, the guy was asking for it, basically suicide by cop, not as satisfying killing someone that was already looking to be killed she shouldve let the guys at the ebon hold take him prisoner (although there are also undertones of basically helping to put down a depressed person, the cinematic was definitively cool but on analysis it doesnt feel heroic).
All of these were botched up because they all have a disclaimer of:
“You succeeded but at a heavy cost” or in the case of nathanos “it was just as planned”
I do not know why they insist on twisting the knife dont they have other races to torture on their narrative? why isnt thrall and baine crying for all the tauren and orc souls that will be lost forever? why arent they scrambling to put them somewhere while swearing revenge to sylvanas.
Now, on the healing angle, the dead are dead, killing horde wont bring them back however… why am i seeing this story here again? i strongly believe these kind of developments arent.
1-What we were sold when we subscribed this is supposed to be a heroic fantasy I should be able to solve the conflict murdering the “bad guy” i like healing stories however i dont think theyre very compatible with all the “power fantasy angle” since thats more of a personal journey and involving lots of passivity and forgiving.
2- Too nuanced to be able to be told on this media, we have a two faction system and they KNOW they were going to ship the same content to both factions so you cant drop a bomb like genocide and expect a neat resolution.
Truthfully this is what happens when you drop a drama bomb like that one just to see “how the chips fall and develop from there” or just to “stir the pot”.
They really could had a case with the elune angle and saving souls but i dont think thats where we are going.
I think I’ve said my peace on “a” prospective redemptive path earlier, but regarding the topic we’re dealing with right now. In a two faction game there is no getting around comparing the two, and there can be no nuance for both Factions so long as one of them holds on to Moral Absolutism.
So yes, as much as it seems counterintuitive, part of “redeeming” the Horde will need to come from returning some sense of balance and nuance between both Factions. To allow both to have virtues and flaws. Rather than what we have right now, which is one faction oversaturated with virtues (and few if any tangible flaws) and the other mired in flaws (and allowed very few virtues). Thus, the Moral Absolutism of the Alliance has to be done away with. There is a lot you have to do with the Horde too, but that is a bare minimum requirement change. For as long as they remain a monolith of morality, the only way the Horde can prove they are capable of “good” is by how submissive and convenient they are for the Alliance.
Note, I am looking at it purely from a meta point of view. To get into it in lore would be a quagmire as this entire thread has shown.
This is a larger discussion than the Horde redemption. The Horde showing actual honor and seeking redemption would be a necessary part of getting that kind of a world (unless you want both factions to be villains). But, that redemption is not dependent on that kind of world. The Horde can pursue redemption even if the Alliance isn’t lowered to their level.
I don’t actually. Atonement is a way to reach redemption. And yes redemption is given. But there is an expectation of the offending party seeking it by action.
I would argue this is mostly because there has been zero contrition on the part of the Horde (only exception is the one that wasn’t even part of the war and genocide).
I do feel like the Horde could be redeemed. It just needs to show that contrition. Act to try and correct the wrongs. And purge itself of those that rejoice in it.
I do agree that the Horde player should not have to spend a ton of time for that exact reason. But the Horde should be seen doing what it can, even if the Horde players’ part is little more than witnessing it.
Oh, I don’t think it was even in the same league (many orders of magnitude away) as far as wrong goes. But I was trying to illustrate a concept.
The morality of a faction is not dependent on other factions morality.
You have missed the whole point. It is not about perfectly balancing the scales. I don’t think you can at this point. But redemption is not about everything being balanced. It is about showing a change in character by action. Redeeming the Horde is not about paying back the loses. They can’t. It is about showing regret and trying to do everything in their power to correct what they can. It is about being (shown by action) better now and going forward.
If you believe that, you have completely failed to follow my logic.
Redemption is not about equality. You wanting the Alliance to be dirtied so it is closer to the Horde doesn’t redeem the Horde. It makes the Alliance worse. Maybe that would be a good thing for the game. Maybe not. I am not arguing that point. But making the Alliance worse doesn’t make the Horde better.
Ysera is not going to be reborn. She was bound to Ardenweald.
Short answer to this is yes, it would help. It would show a level of contrition and desire to correct their wrongs. That is not something we are seeing from the Horde at all.
Problem I have with that is the “We’re” part. Thrall is trying to make up for it. Thrall is trying to be better. The Horde is not. Which is probably my single biggest issue with the Horde atm. Thrall is making them look so bad.
Agreed.
I think the Thrall thing might just be a side effect of the game focusing on a small handful of hero characters to drive the story, which makes things awkward when their idea of showing the good side of the horde is Thrall and Baine. Blizzard probably isn’t interested in writing about rank-and-file characters doing much of anything unless it’s a backdrop for the hero units.
So the devs go “Here’s a representative trying to do better!” but if the playerbase is going “we don’t care about the representative,” then the story pitch is going to fall flat no matter what they write.
You know what this actually made me think of?
Illidan.
No, seriously, hear me out. We get what’s effectively his “Last Will & Testament” at the end of Legion, and maybe it’s just that word, “contrition,” but I suddenly thought of Tyrande’s response to his message:
Contrite words. Yet I must wonder whether he truly meant them.
This being in response to
At those times when I faced doubt, I held true to one constant. One anchor. You. You have always embodied the best of Azeroth, Tyrande. Your faith. Your devotion. Through the darkest times, my belief in you never wavered…Though at times I wished your heart had made a different choice, in the end… I know it made the right one.
So even the effing Betrayer himself can be bothered to be “contrite” and send out an apology and confession…but we get no such thing from the Horde, which similarly claims to want to protect Azeroth from all threats.
I know Legion (rather obviously) had a better writing team than Battle for Azeroth, but that really makes me sick.
Well I guess we could dig around the garbage bin for a leftover val’kyr and raise Saurfang so he can write apology notes to everyone but I doubt that would amount to anything. 
She still dismissed his message, even after he helped malf save her in WC3 lol. It is an interesting thing you brought up
Sure, but at least he made the effort.
That’s the difference.
It makes the Horde better relative to the Alliance.
If the Alliance is at 100 and the Horde is at 10, bringing the Alliance down to 80 does the same thing as bringing the Horde to 30. Because, again, the Horde can never get to 100.
Well his effort was rebuffed and tbh in the case of illidan, Tyrande only freed him just so she could use him.
It actually doesn’t, and I understand what Merinque is saying; this is the classic, “Athlete A is more talented than Athlete B” scenario.
Ok, so if Athlete B wants to beat Athlete A, he/she should…pull a Tonya Harding and bring Athlete A down to his/her level?
No, because that’s not self-improvement; that’s not bettering yourself.
You’re just making the other person as bad as you are.
We’re not talking about numbers.
You can’t quantify morality, so stop trying.
I never suggested that the Horde bring the Alliance down a peg as your hypothetical implies.
Spoilers of shadows rising.
Thrall goes to hyjal and apologizes on behalf of the horde, however its framed… weirdly to say the least.
I mean he is basically apologizing for something he personally didnt do “sorry we pinky swear we wont do it, again” and he is upset they’re treating him so rudely (tyrande was just staring him for a while) while baine and calia just stand there being peaceniks, spewing detritus and platitudes.
Man you dont apologize for a mistake you didnt make it makes the customer feels like you’re spewing a preprogrammed answer, you also have to offer reassurance and empathize you understand how theyre feeling and that you’re dismayed about their situation, thats like customer service 101 lol.
Except we can. The Alliance is the moral standard for World of Warcraft. And because of what the Horde has done it can never reach that same point as the Alliance when it comes to morality. There are stains there that can’t be ignored while the Alliance remains pristine.
No, see…the current writing team, I’m sure, would like for us to believe that.
But pre-existing content should be enough to dissuade you from that (very ridiculous) notion.
If anything, our Lord and Savior Illidan Stormrage is the moral standard for World of Warcraft! 
Again, the Alliance isn’t pristine, even if it’s merely presented as if it is.
What we actually need more of is what we began to see in Shadows Rising with Turalyon and Alleria literally torturing someone for information.
Jaina: Torture is wrong.
Anduin: So is what Sylvanas did! We can’t let a murderer get away!
Jaina: Ok, but you’re still torturing people!
This one conversation literally gave us greater moral complexity than the whole of Battle for Azeroth ever did.
Which is actually pretty sad.
If you think…
Oh. I see. A man of culture.
Lord Illidan knows the way
I don’t believe the world can be balanced unless the moral worth of the factions is also balanced.
See? This would be bringing the Alliance down a peg. But it’s immediately walked back and the Alliance is allowed to maintain its spotless record.
I agree that there should be tension and disagreement within the Alliance and I think a number of Alliance players agree.
