I feel like it was already fairly clear without that bizarre reading in of a consequence that wasn’t mentioned.
You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t entirely trust your representations of my arguments.
1 Like
Well, given our previous conversations, you will have to forgive me in turn for expecting that you will not consider solutions intended to benefit any party other than your own.
Indeed. Sometimes it is fun to watch Amazonian elves on tigers with rocket-propelled gnomes holding ray guns fight wolf riding buff guys backed by a dinosaur that shoots lightning.
12 Likes
Pretty much this, 
That whole feeling of “Oh, the Horde has done too many awful/violent/murderous/genocidal things, we can’t possibly forgive them”?
We’ve literally seen this game before, back during the First and Second Wars.
You give me Teldrassil, I raise you a Stormwind City. You give me an Undercity, I’ll raise you a Grim Batol and Quel’Thalas.
And as for “bad actors supported by the Horde long past the point of all reason”? Sylvanas is to Gul’dan and Blackhand as Saurfang is to Orgrim Doomhammer—Saurfang himself likens Sylvanas to Blackhand during his conversation with Anduin.
And sure, Turalyon—yes, the same Turalyon who is currently Anduin’s right hand in the modern Alliance, mind you!—decided to show mercy to Doomhammer at the end of the Second War, and so the “evil” Horde was defeated, the Alliance was victorious, and all was well and peaceful.
Then we had a series of nationwide internment camps in which the orcs were literally squatting in their own waste, all of it overseen by one of the most vile, hateful, drunken leaders in human history.
Side hint: Literally the only thing that is preventing the modern Alliance from implementing this sort of “proactive” (read: preemptive) measure against the peoples of the Horde is, well…the leaders and armies of the Horde.
The same Horde that just got rid of its own position of Warchief, and which players on both sides have actually called for disbanding.
Now, the original team behind the early Warcraft III era either deliberately set up the orcs as “evil” and the humans as “good” as a form of irony, or wisely changed course post-Warcraft II. Either way, the result was the same: the traditional mold of fantasy stereotypes ala Tolkien was broken, the game was changed forever, and we got one of the greatest fantasy stories ever told.
The current writing team that gave us Battle for Azeroth seems to genuinely believe these stereotypes are true.
And to anyone who doesn’t understand why that is so dangerous, what Blizzard is currently doing with repeating history and making the Horde the “bad guys” and the Alliance the faction of “human/moral superiority,” I highly suggest you:
- Go read Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness.
- Then go read Day of the Dragon.
- Then go read Lord of the Clans.
- Then go read Of Blood and Honor.
- Then go read Chapter Six of Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, specifically the dinner conversation between Arthas, Jaina, Kael’thas, and Antonidas in Dalaran, regarding the orc internment camps.
- Then go play through the first three missions of the Blood Elf Campaign, “Curse of the Blood Elves,” in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.
To paraphrase from another forum topic on this very subject, there is a very good argument for deliberately making the (still very much human-centric) Alliance racially-biased again.
Because if Blizzard is truly insistent on repeating Warcraft history, then they might as well do it properly.
5 Likes
Well, the other major problem as droite, I and others have pointed out is that none of the escalation tactics the alliance has used against the horde is alllowed to stick to them. It’s always buried under mountains of justifications or excuses.
7 Likes
Justification in itself would not be a problem if it were not objective.
Justification is a good thing, but the other faction does not have to share it. subjective justification would be better.
1 Like
The day they abandon the current ensemble of characters is a good day.
Outside of simps I dont know anyone that finds the current story interesting, nor anyone that finds the characters interesting or relatable. And I am not talking about “Hurr durr it is because we dont have super powers and magic stuff irl” stuff.
nah
If marvel can make a Literal god of thunder able to fly and destroy massive vessels containing mooks in an instant relatable, Blizzard can do that too.
Ok ehm bad comparison, given that marvel actually has a guy that knows his stuff at its head
The characters are mostly Emotional Rollercoasters I feel like the current style of BFA cinematics “sadfang” stuff was inspired by the mop ending cinematic, but it feels more like “What if Shakespeare wrote a porno” or something, there is too much talk, the dialogue is cringey and predictable (“what is different this time?” “We are” for instance…) Maybe it is just the burnout speaking, but I really want to understand why I havent been able to enjoy the story stuff, I can find immersing myself into the games world something I want on my own terms. Idk I blame it on the characters but i am not sure if that is the truth, the storyline feels to be getting more “we are doing this stuff for dramatic effect”.
1 Like
You have other people on this same thread claiming that it is impossible for not just the Horde, but anyone to actually “make amends,” though.
“You can’t make up for your past mistakes–you can only move on from them” had been said multiple times.
How do you respond to that?
Not to be “that person,” but I think you meant flagrant, as in blatant? However, since “fragrant” can be a euphemism for “stinking,” maybe I’m wrong about that. 
It is impossible because it’s the same ol’ We heard this before a thousand times and you still resort to being genocidal monsters every few years. After a while the notion you’re going to change just becomes a running joke.
If that makes any sense
4 Likes
The horde doesnt need to move on or make amends from their “mistakes” they simply need to ignore it, alternatively lessen the impact it has on the Horde (I mean idk if it has any impact) instead of just “redemption this redemption that”
It’s even more impossible and ridiculous precisely because the Horde didn’t need to necessarily become a faction of genocidal monsters, but were made into one purely for dramatic effect—the “Red Wedding” from Game of Thrones has been referenced a couple times, for example.
And I know myself and many others have also pointed out the very-noticeable contrast in faction/moral-balancing between the various “ages” of Warcraft: Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos - Vanilla vs. Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria - Battle for Azeroth, for example.
9 Likes
And even if there were that path back, its going to take a lot of work. Far more work than Blizzard has ever been willing to commit to the Horde. But, if they were willing to do that … there lies the fundamental issue that has been plaguing our faction since Cata.
The issue that soft-retconned Varian’s declaration of war and turned Garrosh from a temperamental young Orc taking issue with the Alliance holding a deathgrip on the future survival of his people (not just their prosperity) … into Orc Hitler. The same issue that had Vol’jin (our last WC3 leader) get killed by trash mob; had Sylvie acting as WC before he even died; forced him and his “spirits” to get over their deep mistrust of Sylvie to shove her into the driver’s seat; forced the rest of the Horde who disliked her to stand by quietly; and for Genn’s assassination of her to be handwaved away without consequence.
When ever the Faction Conflict rears its ugly head, because it can NEVER be the Alliance that starts it despite them having good reasons to … it HAS to be the Horde that does. And clearly, looking back, it does not matter how much Blizz has to twist things to make that happen … they will. Without even for a moment considering what the Horde’s motives or justifications would be for such antagonism. In part, because for Horde antagonism to be justified in any way, the Alliance would have to do something antagonistic … and that’s a flaw. They can’t have those. And until this changes, it doesn’t matter how redeemed we are.
Blizz will just force us to be the baddies again the next time they want to revisit the Faction Conflict.
12 Likes
As I said, I honestly think that with this being the case … the only way to operate is to get back to super basics. Despite his flaws, Saurfang’s sacrifice can serve as a more thematic foundation for the Horde than either Grom or Doomhammer did. Simply because of the intent of his sacrifice, and final wishes. But Blizz has to embrace that, and allow for it to actually matter. Then all we need is some pillar characters to embody that theme, and we “could” get them with Thrall, Baine, and Jin in SLs here. With Calia getting some work put into her to make her more palatable, if not leadership material outright (that is a bigger issue). But Blizz has to be willing to put in the work and be willing to sacrifice their easy button “Conflict Plot Device” faction forever. From these central pillars and foundation, we can expand and built up everything else.
But, we’ll see pretty soon here I suppose what direction they will go.
3 Likes
You mean they have to stop ripping off Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings? 'Tis blasphemy thou speaketh! 
2 Likes
I mean, think about it. What is the number one issue people have with Baine conceptually. That functionally his own characterization needs are almost always set aside for his needs to serve as a “Token Good Horde Plot-Device” whenever Blizz wants to go off the deepend with another Horde character. And since the Alliance are always the Good-Guys, that automatically means Baine is always Alliance leaning.
But … if Blizz is serious about “finally” allowing the Horde to rebuild, then that miserable role that Baine has been shackled with isn’t needed anymore. And if he doesn’t need to be that Token Good Horde, then that role does not need to come at the expense of his characterization anymore. Which means, that the surest (short term) sign that Blizz is finally willing to let the Horde rebuild and redeem itself is by letting Baine have an actual personal character arc in SLs here. Where the need of a Token Good Horde has never been less. One that finally places his characterization needs above that horrific functional role.
But … we’ll see. He’s one of two Living Horde reps we get in this expac. Will Blizz finally do something for Baine’s benefit as a character, or will he end up simply moping around for Anduin the entire expac? Waiting of the Alliance High King he’s been made a convenient accessory of to have HIS story progress?
6 Likes
I mean, it is a little sad that literally the only time we’ve ever seen Baine in combat is his Echo in End Time, back in Cataclysm, not counting World PvP…
2 Likes
He’s been in combat in the books I suppose, but yeah. Like I said. There is going to be very little Faction Oriented storytelling in SLs I suspect, but the character I am most paying attention to with for an indication of how Blizz intends to write the Horde post-SLs is Baine.
He’s one of Three Horde characters likely to come back with us to the real world after this expac. He has no reason to need to be the Token Good Horde here. He was also given a pretty powerful catalyst for growth with his own kidnapper shoving it into his face repeatedly how weak and worthless he is within 9.0. Above all, the Token Good Horde Plot-Device is not needed with a story direction for the Horde that does not intend to Villain Bat us again. Baine’s plot-device status being discarded gives a better chance for the Horde’s plot-device status to also finally be discarded. Thus, I’m watching how Blizz uses him.
2 Likes
TBF, the moment Vol’jin began to spoke about how they together could use the victory on Nothrend to make stronger the Horde and unite the people, Garrosh jumped at his neck telling he did nothing in the war of the north and the Chieftain just show his boneback and told him F off.
Garrosh made his own enemies because he though for being related to x everyone will obey him(very similar to Nathanos).
The main problem was Thrall not seeing this as a red flag, but then again since that moment, the game went full cartoonish and we now deal with Thrall with his inferiority complex and his passive-aggresive behavior against his own people.
2 Likes
Still on team French Toast here. It’s the best of both worlds!