How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Velskàr-stormrage

Yes, they are biased against Sylvanas to an extent—it’s why I linked the bit of Forsaken trivia from WoWpedia—but even more so, largely, against the Horde itself and its core races (orcs, trolls, tauren).

Here I do not agree. The story wasn’t good, but it wasn’t a bias against the Horde either. Resources and focus-wise the Horde was at the center, that’s easy to admit objectively, but that doesn’t change the fact that the story was just horrible and bad, with a few exceptions, but overall BFA was not a good addon.

• It split the playerbase so fundamentally that there really only seems to be extreme ones
• It makes the horde the biggest idiots since Warcraft memory
• The Horde is unsalvageable in many ways, except for meta reasons that it has to exist.
• The Alliance will forever have to deal with the ingame genocide that happened in full media that raised the rivalry between the factions to a level that can never be met (The Horde can’t lose as much as the Alliance, but even the Alliance is now so short on the things they have that there isn’t much left to destroy that the Horde doesn’t have, so both stand at…nothing)
• The players could only be disappointed, there has never been a plan to end bFA well, apparently.

What I agree is that blizz set a framework that only had to disappoint, it was impossible to end this well because the consequences would have included the extinction of playable factions/races, which cannot happen.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Regarding your second point especially, you’re missing my point. I’m not here saying that we shouldn’t discuss these things, I was pushing back against the idea that this would have been prevented if only the Night Elves were in the Horde - and this unfortunately is in line with these boards’ tendency to assign weird root causes to biased and arbitrary decision making.

The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because the Night Elves were in the Alliance.
The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because faction war narratives require this sort of thing (they don’t).
The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because Night Elves didn’t technologically adapt (they did).
The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because the Alliance needed motivation to fight the Horde.
The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because Sylvanas needed to be further established as a villain.
The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because the Night Elves bordered the Horde and that sort of thing is just inevitable because Night Elves are only allowed to rage against the dying of the light.

Those are all coincidental factors. None of them required the Burning of Teldrassil, and several of them are harmed by the event. Blizzard threw every single solitary consideration in-narrative and out, out of their way to make this happen. They were going to ram that square peg into that round hole even if it killed them. The writers are the root cause - nothing else.

I say this because when we assign bad root causes, we arrive on bad conclusions for how to fix things. We have to be accurate about this sort of thing.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

Don’t underestimate racists, it only makes them more dangerous because you think they’re all stupid…

I have no idea what you are talking about or implying I was talking about.

I was saying the hatred from these hated character is based on past grievances rather than “these guys look inhuman so I hate them” kind of lazy character writing.

[Waygs-bleeding-hollow]

@Pellex-hyjal

Frustratingly, I can’t find the actual quote, but I know I remember seeing on the old board that someone at Blizzard said the CC wouldn’t fix Durotar because that would be messing with the natural order.

Grow an unnatural giant tree that is a potential old god corruption target?

Accelerate regrowing forests that were already there?

I see the Cenarians had their priorities right.

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

… I don’t see how this post does anything other than re-enforce the idea that since the basis of the Horde’s current need to be redeemed in the first place is egregiously forced and moronic that any attempt to redeem/rebuild them isn’t possible without being equally egregiously forced and moronic? Especially since the same people would be writing it?

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I was pushing back against the idea that this would have been prevented if only the Night Elves were in the Horde - and this unfortunately is in line with these boards’ tendency to assign weird root causes to biased and arbitrary decision making.

Ok, except there’s nothing “weird” about it.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because the Night Elves were in the Alliance.

No, that one happened because they wanted to villain-bat Sylvanas ala Garrosh at Theramore.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because Night Elves didn’t technologically adapt (they did).

I don’t think anyone has made this claim.

Like, ever.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because Sylvanas needed to be further established as a villain.

So this is just wrong, because, well…this is exactly why the Burning happened.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The Burning of Teldrassil did not happen because the Night Elves bordered the Horde and that sort of thing is just inevitable because Night Elves are only allowed to rage against the dying of the light.

I mean, here you’re half-right—it wasn’t “inevitable,” but the Kaldorei were the easiest/most obvious target once Blizzard decided to make the Horde the aggressors again.

Sylvanas was never going to rule as Warchief out of the Undercity; Orgrimmar has always been the Horde capital, and it’s on Kalimdor.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Those are all coincidental factors.

Ok, so now you’re just being delusional.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

They were going to ram that square peg into that round hole even if it killed them. The writers are the root cause - nothing else.

I don’t think you quite understand how story-telling, even bad story-telling, works. You’re literally making the claim that the writers were going to go this route…but somehow everything else you listed above is, “just a coincidence.”

Like…what?

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I say this because when we assign bad root causes, we arrive on bad conclusions for how to fix things.

Which is what the current writing team has done.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

We have to be accurate about this sort of thing.

You mean like actually considering the backstory, lore, and faction relations pre-Vanilla WoW?

Because that’s what I’ve been doing for the past several posts, and which you seem to be deliberately ignoring because “well, the writers don’t care, they’ll do what they want, so none of it matters.”

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

There’s nothing written in stone saying that we must retain the same writers. I’d in fact argue that some pink slips are in order.

@ Velskar

I am not accepting that as a serious response. It’s clear that you went line by line, gathering pieces of a whole argument, and tried to reply to each of the different blocks before you understood the structure that they were there to support. Go back and read the post again. Understand what it is trying to say, then reply to the concept as a whole - because you are missing the point entirely.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I am not accepting that as a serious response.

Fine, don’t accept it.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

It’s clear that you went line by line, gathering pieces of a whole argument

…you mean replying to each of your individual points, one-by-one?

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

and tried to reply to each of the different blocks before you understood the structure that they were there to support. Go back and read the post again. Understand what it is trying to say, then reply to the concept as a whole - because you are missing the point entirely.

Try again, and please say what you mean, instead of resorting to, “well, you can’t possibly understand what I’m saying, it’s so complex that it goes over your head.”

Because that just reads like an elitist trying to use meaningless jargon in place of a real (read: intelligent) argument.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

There’s nothing complex about it. It’s just that you decided to employ the “pause and comment reply video” style of approaching the point, which caused you to miss it - and I am not going to continue to try and lead your proverbial horse to the water on this if it refuses to drink. Read the post again, come back when you’re prepared to comment on the overall point.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

Right, so you’d rather continue acting like an elitist, insisting that you have an argument I’m somehow refusing to understand, rather than invest the time and effort in helping others to understand your “argument” (which isn’t complex, it’s apparently very simple!).

Got it.

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

I mean if the Horde doesn’t make amends then how can they be heroes?

All the terrible things they have done always be there like a giant elephant waiting to be addressed.

So anything they say or do will appear hypocritical and self serving.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I think investing further in trying to get you to understand this is as advisable as shorting Gamestop. There was nothing intricate or esoteric about the point, and there are only so many ways to say the same thing before you’re forced to conclude that the other person just isn’t willing to listen.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I think investing further in trying to get you to understand this is as advisable as shorting Gamestop.

You are entitled to your own opinion. Congratulations.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

There was nothing intricate or esoteric about the point, and there are only so many ways to say the same thing before you’re forced to conclude that the other person just isn’t willing to listen.

That’s funny, because if I recall, you only “tried” to explain your point once, before concluding that I was (obviously) missing it.

And in my experience, people who use deliberately-vague sentences like

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

tried to reply to each of the different blocks before you understood the structure that they were there to support.

or words like

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

intricate or esoteric

aren’t trying to have a conversation. They’re just trying to appear as if they’re somehow more intelligent than everyone else: “I have an argument, but you couldn’t possibly understand it, and you’re even refusing to do so right now!”

That is what you seem to be doing, right now.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I mean, I’m sorry if you don’t like my word choice. This is just how I talk, sorry. Other than that, no, I’m not going to try to explain my argument five times if you’re going to do things like block quote two sentences across four sections so that you can persist with this “stop and comment reaction video” style of approaching a point.

It causes you to miss points, as it did with my last one.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I mean, I’m sorry if you don’t like my word choice. This is just how I talk, sorry.

It’s not about your word choice, it’s about your attitude.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Other than that, no, I’m not going to try to explain my argument five times…

Case in point.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

…if you’re going to do things like block quote two sentences across four sections so that you can persist with this “stop and comment reaction video” style of approaching a point.

It’s called analysis. I am literally demonstrating how to analyze your argument, point-by-point.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

It causes you to miss points, as it did with my last one.

See, you keep insisting that I am somehow “missing the point” because I’m taking your argument apart, but if anything, I’m…taking your argument apart.

Which should probably cause you to consider how strong your “argument” was to begin with.

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

The Horde can’t make amends. It is no longer possible. That was what Thrall was trying to accomplish back in WCIII/Vanilla. The writers bent them until they broke that narrative. It is no longer believable to me that the Alliance should show them the slightest forgiveness or mercy after all the (largely unprovoked) crimes the horde has committed against them.

In my eyes, the Horde-Alliance relationship has been degenerated down to an abusive husband promising that he’s not going to get drunk and beat his wife again… for the fourth time.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

It’s called analysis. I am literally demonstrating how to analyze your argument, point-by-point.

No, it’s called missing the forest for the trees.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

Pretty sure it isn’t; you seem to be under the impression that “if only” I quoted your entire post all at once, every single letter, that it would somehow form a “different picture” than if I quote (what I consider) your strongest and/or most relevant points individually.

I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but that’s not how logical, thoughtful debate, discussion, and argument works. You may object to my style of responding all you like, but at the end of the day, you’re not presenting an ink blot test (which can be viewed multiple different ways).

You are forming an argument that (you hope) will be taken seriously, but which (hopefully) relies upon the same logic and reasoning regardless of how it’s presented.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I’m more under the impression that some arguments are like those cheeky assignments that began with “read everything first before you do anything” and ended with “disregard steps 2 through 512” - and that you can lead yourself to some pretty weird places if you progress step by step through the text of an argument without understanding its point first.

Which again, it appears you did.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Skarm-sentinels

That was what Thrall was trying to accomplish back in WCIII/Vanilla. The writers bent them until they broke that narrative. It is no longer believable to me that the Alliance should show them the slightest forgiveness or mercy after all the (largely unprovoked) crimes the horde has committed against them.

And this is what’s sad, because there was honestly a time when there was hope for better faction relations—even during Wrath of the Lich King and Cataclysm this was true.

So much of Varian Wrynn’s story of personal growth, for example, is all about taking him from the human king ranting about “green-skinned aberrations” while attacking the Undercity to a faction leader who will literally nod in respect to the Banshee Queen herself at the Broken Shore.

@Skarm-sentinels

In my eyes, the Horde-Alliance relationship has been degenerated down to an abusive husband promising that he’s not going to get drunk and beat his wife again… for the fourth time.

It’s honestly disturbing how appropriate this analogy is, especially considering how the Horde has had its Warchief turned into a “Third-Party Villain” for the second time now.