There is significant irony from this conversation chain coming from the discussion of colonizers and coming here to the point of Rastakhan celebrating the Troll Empire being the original ones.
Bring back Garrosh and have him be the Majima to the hordes champion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCD8MykgZXk
nah but seriously I have always said that Horde needs a character like Ryuiji goda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1TAuiT3l5A
The horde fits better as a Crime family than a âHappy wholesomeâ family.
While I do agree with this, it also reminds of this becomes even more bizarre when you take in how Blizzard will either use the the Alliance as a way to push a race towards the Horde or have the Alliance as an antagonist party towards Horde within Horde territory.
Orcs/Trolls - With the Cataclysm, Northwatch forces seek to rebuild Tiragarde Keep, and have pushed the turned Kolkar Crag into Northwatch Foothold, where they have attack plans for Senâjin Village, Razor Hill, and even Orgrimmar itself.
Tauren - In vanilla they were was an Alliance dwarf encampment and Baine sent adventurers there to break their tools to show they werenât welcomed. As of Cataclysm, there is no Alliance presence within Mulgore.
In vanilla, the orcs, trolls, and tauren also contended with Northwatch Hold, Baelâdun, and the Alliance Outrunners in the Barrens. Following the Barrens split in Cataclysm, Southern Barrens became contested territory and the Horde territory of Northern Barrens has no Alliance presence.
Forsaken - No official Alliance presence within Tirisfal Glades. Silverpine Forest, was a conflict with feral Worgen and Scourge prior to the Cataclysm, which changed the zone to focus on the Forsaken-Gilneas conflict. Hillsbrad had the Tarren Mill-Southshore conflict in vanilla, which turned in the Forsaken vs Bloodfang Worgen/Stormpike Dwarves in Cataclysm.
Blood Elf - Tried to rejoin the Alliance however the Alliance ambassador was a spy and night elf saboteurs were within their territory, and actively against them. One of their sanctums were sabotaged and the night elves claimed the territory, in which the elves had each key of the key of three moons. Thus the Blood Elves turn to the open hand of the Forsaken, and thus the Horde.
Goblins - The Alliance actively kills them in their âno witnessesâ approach to them capturing Thrall, pushing them into joining the Horde. And then Azshara has them engage against the Alliance as well.
Pandaren - While both the Horde and Alliance are present neither are presented as antagonist towards the Pandaren.
Nightborne - The Alliance not stated to be factor. Though it is implied that the Nightborne were turned away by the night elves, so they turned to Silvermoon and thus the Horde.
Highmountain - The Alliance were not a factor.
Magâhar - The Alliance were not a factor. Though the Alliance did work Yrel and the AU Draenei in WoD, the Lightbound are their own thing.
Zandalari - The Alliance decision to attack DazarâAlor to sever the bonds between the Horde and the Zandalari Empire, saw the death of King Rastakhan, and thus backfired since the Zandalari officially joined the Horde soon after.
Vulpera - The 7th Legion attack the Vulpera caravans, burning them, and imprisoning Vulpera during the Assault on Volâdun until their rescue by the Horde, further seeded the Vulpera joining the Horde.
This more than anything convinces me that we will do anyone for some gold and loot, anyone.
Apparently the KulâTirans forgave her after she freed the captured fleet, which led to the defeat of Ashvane and her pirates.
Iâm still surprised that they never gave an official reasoning for the Night Elves joining the Alliance, not even in Chronicle Volume 3.
Nope. At the time of the Battle for the Undercity, Sylvanas wasnât allied with the Jailer. She didnât even meet him until after Arthas was killed.
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A correction: The Night Elves were there to spy on the Blood Elves for yet undisclosed reasons, not to sabotage. The Night Elves brought their own moon crystals to the former holding locations of pieces of the Key of the Three Moons because the locations were ley-line nexus points that would allow the Night Elves to use the moon crystals they brought as scrying devices.
The Blood Elves themselves determined that the malfunctions at their sanctums were not caused by the Night Elves, but rather the Blood Elves overloading the sanctums themselves.
However, this was still nonetheless both espionage and territorial occupation the Night Elves enacted on the Blood Elves, which did indeed push them towards the Horde.
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And Gallywix is a straight up villain now being set up to dispense purples.
Whatâs your point?
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That Zandalar being looted wasnât something just the alliance was doing, you had members of the horde doing it tooâŚI think thatâs the point being made.
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I just want to re-iterate how incredibly frustrating and useless this plot point was.
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Yes. But my point is the Horde groups/Gallywix doing it are clear antagonists being set up for a future expansion dungeon or questline, while the Alliance looters are supposed to be the shining beacons of morality or whatever Blizzard wanted them to be in BFA.
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Which is you, disgusting, because Jaina and Co are anything but shining examples of morality 
Which is particularly hypocritical when you consider:
- Bonus Orc Campaign âOld Hatreds,â Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne:
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- Daelin Proudmoore completely deforests the region/zone of Durotar to build what we now know as Tiragarde Keep, along with several other bases along Kalimdorâs coastline, from Durotar all the way to Dustwallow Marsh and into Theramore Isle itself
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- Thereâs literally a quest from Drekâthar that explains how the local Thunder Lizards at Thunder Ridge, an actual location in Durotar, are being driven mad by the increasing lack of vegetation:
Footman: Look, more orcs! Our intelligence was right. Weâd best head back to base and report!
Rexxar: Humans? What could they be doing here?
DrekâThar: We allied with the humans at the Battle of Mount Hyjal. Our two races have been at peace ever since. Still, itâs strange that they would venture so far into our lands.
Rexxar: A human lumber mill! Theyâve cut down all of the trees! Thatâs got to be whatâs driving the thunder lizards mad. We should destroy the mill immediately!
DrekâThar: No. Our warchief signed a non-aggression pact with the humans. Destroying their holdings could lead us to open war. For now we must put the raging lizards down before they cause any more harm. Weâll have to deal with the humans later.
Thrall: You say the humans were deforesting Thunder Ridge? What could Jaina be thinking? Itâs not like her to be so reckless. Iâll look into this matter, Rexxar. You have my word.
This is still something that gets glossed over in World of Warcraft with all the PvP-centered emphasis on Warsong Gulch to this very day. Everyone, including the night elves, gets so hyper-focused on âOh noes, them orcs is chopping down the Ashenvale trees!â that the whole reason for why the orcs are in such dire need of lumber to begin with simplyâŚgets forgotten.
âI guess it must be because theyâre just greedy, because theyâre just orcs, /shrugâ
Basically, insert racist argument for lack of any real information.
Imagine insteadâwhat should have happenedâif Thrall had gone to Malfurion and Tyrande, explained the situation, and then the druids work with the orcsâ shamans to regrow the vegetation/plant life of Durotar.
But no, we canât have each faction dominate a whole continent. Gameplay takes priority over the lore in an MMO, apparentlyâŚ
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There was actually kind of an agreement like this in place. The Cenarians werenât re-foresting Durotar, but they were providing sustainable cruelty free free range organic Food/lumber to the orcs in exchange for withdrawal from Ashenvale.
Then Tyrande ripped up that agreement becuase the Twilights killed a bunch of druids, and whoops turns out orcs like food and not being cold.
I do fully agree that the Cenarians not doing anything to âfixâ Durotar is a giant mis-step, especially since the Tauren delegation should be free to do that, but Blizzard only ever wants to showcase the nelves when it comes to druidic affairs.
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The problems came before then. The comics - specifically when discussing the Theramore peace conference that took place before Wrath - establish that Thrallâs Horde was at war with the NIght Elves for lumber. Thrall agreed to end it in exchange for a trade deal. Vanillaâs conflicts were canon.
The agreement also didnât die because of the Twilights. The agreement went down over the wrathgate, but suffice to say, itâs not like there was a history of a healthy, amicable relationship between the Horde and the Night Elves before the agreementâs demise. One would think that Thrall would have understood the need to court the Night Elves as allies, and that territorial invasions would sour future relationships, but for some reason he didnât.
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The Cenarions were in the proximity, though. Just it lead to the Wailing Caverns and the Overgrowth.
That said, with the Nightmare handled now, they could probably try again with less issues.
And the Cenarius Circle canât make a fertile landscape out of a desert just like that, something like that takes time, especially when this place has been a really very fallow area for 10,000 years and even there are hints that it was a desert 10,000 years ago.
I mean, how long have they been trying to fix Deolace, since WC3, thatâs a couple of decades ago already, and theyâre âŚnot particularly far along, letâs put it that way.
But it was at least partially jungle roughly 30 years ago (How long ago was WC3?). I believe outside of the Orgrimmar valley, the natural state of Durotar is more like what the Echo isles are.
Also Desolace has magical taint keeping it desolate so Iâd imagine itâd be easier to do it in a non tainted land. Naralex and his disciples were responsible for the overgrowth in the barrens and that only went bad because of the taint of the EN.
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Jungle did not, there was a small forest that was picked up by the KulâTirans (it seams in an absolut record of time).
At the moment it looks bad anyway, because the river is also poisoned, which again increases the pressure on the fauna and flora considerably.
See my previous post for Ground Zero:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/how-can-we-redeemrebuild-the-horde/837820/1157
Because yes, Thrall and the Horde did have an amiable relationship with both the Kaldorei and the survivors of Lordaeron, after Mt. Hyjal.
It was only with Daelinâs arrival that the seeds of what we now know to be the infamous âfaction conflictâ started to be sown; there werenât even the two large factions as we know them today back in Warcraft III.
As far as the Kalimdor-dwelling races went, it was actually three: the Horde, the Alliance (survivors of Lordaeron), and the Kaldorei, with the Undead Forsaken then dominating the ruins of Lordaeron and the Plaguelands over in the Eastern Kingdoms.
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Iâm aware of what happened in Old Hatreds. I recall being pretty surprised actually when I first played it that the Horde didnât try to engage with the Night Elves in some way - as they werenât understood to be part of the Alliance at the time.
Hence, I donât see Proudmooreâs actions as being an appropriate reason for Thrallâs permissiveness of the Hordeâs acts of war in Ashenvale. You suddenly not having resources is not an excuse to invade a disconnected partyâs lands to take them. That seems instead like a fantastic way to make enemies that your new and struggling nation really doesnât need.
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Which honestly is a greater indication of Vanilla WoWâs writing than it is of Warcraft IIIâs. At the time, I could understand why Thrall didnât reach out to the night elves; they were busy dealing with the Illidan situation, and even if weâre never given an exact timeframe, it was still made clear that Daelin was a threat that needed to dealt with immediately.
But yeah, logically-speaking there was far more reason for the Kaldorei and the Horde to develop peaceful relations with one another after that, versus what we actually got.
One relationship (Horde Night Elves) would have been built on building bridges.
The other (Alliance Night Elves) was built on more faction conflict and burning bridges (or rather, World Trees).
No prizes for guessing which route Blizzard thought wouldâve been a bigger hit, given recent events.
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I think the question should ask what the Horde players see as a redemption and rebuilding.
From these posts⌠many, many posts it seems clear for the Horde making any moral reconciliation for their past crimes is a bad idea.
Alliance somehow doing to the Horde what the Horde has done to the Alliance repeatedly is also a no go. Because they have suffered enough.
Horde characters being friendly to the Alliance is bad.
Horde characters being antagonistic to the Alliance is bad because it villain bats them and the Alliance are generally the justice league of WoW.
So what do the Horde players want?
People like to say the Night Elves will never be satisfied but at least they agree on what direction they should take to make repairs/rebuild.
What do the Horde players even want?
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