There’s a reason why the original WOW opening cinematic describes history post-Hyjal as a “tenuous peace” which is all but broken. Every scene which contains more than one character is an Alliance/Horde throwdown… including the extreme example of a Tauren taking on a Dwarf practically at the gates of Ironforge.
Actually as it turned out, they were working for Sylvannas and the Jailor all the way back then.
So, quoting myself here to fill the 10-character requirement:
It was very different from what we’ve seen more and more recently since Mists of Pandaria, which quite literally turned the Horde’s Warchief into a raid boss.
2 Likes
Different times, different creative groups. Whenever a new group takes over, they’re going to show their chops by taking a franchise into a new direction.
Exactly.
And not necessarily a better one, either.
1 Like
Legion was pretty good and Shadowlands is shaping up to be a good expansion shrug
2 Likes
You notice neither of those expansions center—or in Legion’s case, centered—on the the faction conflict.
Plus, let’s face it: Illidan makes any content look good 
1 Like
Dealing with his cringe inducing butt is a million times better than anything BfA gave us. Except Drustvar…I oddly love that zone.
2 Likes
I tried to convey this earlier. The Garrosh-centered narrative (MoP/WoD) creates the Orc-fascist narrative and it’s really the only place it’s portrayed.
Garrosh in MoP is someone corrupted who splinters the Horde to form his “True Horde” because “Thrall’s Horde” doesn’t suit him. While “his” Horde is xenophobic and solely contains Orcs, it isn’t all Orcs that follow. Thrall ends up as one fighting against him in the raid (though obviously the Horde and Alliance are both there).
Garrosh’s Iron Horde followed a similar script but started from a race that faced future knowledge that they had to do “X” otherwise face dire consequences.
But in essence, the entirety of that “portrayal” is a string following Garrosh and is counter to a lot of the other portrayals.
2 Likes
The Alliance didn’t exactly have a choice about “casting out” Daelin or Arthas, both literally chose to leave the Alliance long before they died lol.
Garrosh had 2 major pillars of the horde against him the second it started looking like he was up to crap (and he legitimately hadn’t even done anything at that point), and the belves were trying to bail long before Garrosh started “losing”, until Jaina decided to go full Krystalnacht on them.
Like, it’s a whole thing that he had to import the Dragonmaw and other clans to be his enforcers because average line members who weren’t in his inner circle weren’t happy with the direction he took.
As for Sylvanas, the second Anduin actually opened up talks with members of the Horde and made it clear Sylvanas being ousted wasn’t going to result in Genn and Tyrande getting to go full genocide, basically everyone who wasn’t a loyalist or had a metaphorical knife to the throat joined with Saurfang.
5 Likes
Especially considering—as has been pointed out several times—Garrosh literally had to manipulate his own father Kil’Jaeden-style in order to form the Iron Horde to begin with.
Which is probably the biggest hypocrisy of both his character, and the Horde’s demonization between Mists and Warlords:
Garrosh dreamed of the days when the Horde slaughtered and conquered its way through entire territories, which is why he formed the Iron Horde. But the only reason the Horde did that in the first place was because of the Legion controlling it.
Which is inevitably why the Iron Horde ends up becoming the Fel Horde all over again.
2 Likes
And just like KJ, he did it for a personal grudge, not for some gander design.
Granted, there is a sort of a thematic irony that Garrosh himself (who is told he was not worthy of his father’s legacy) goes out of his way to timetravel and essentially destroy his father’s legacy (both the positives and the negatives) … but there is very little beyond that of positive note. And Grom (a character that yes, I would not mind after his light torturing session was allowed to join the AU Mag’har roster) … really was thrown under the bus of WoD. Along with most Orcish lore.
What bothers me more about WoD is the loss of nuance of the original tragedy of Draenor. Where both the Draenei and the Orcs were decidedly victims, even if the latter was used as a tool to hurt the prior. Which btw, is the reason that Velen has NEVER held it against the Orcish people. Because he knows better than anyone that he brought that evil upon them … and the moment KJ found him, the indigenous of Draenor were doomed no matter what they did. Caught in the crossfire of an Eradar dispute.
WoD … doesn’t do as much harm to the Orcish lore as most people claim it does, but only if you are willing to really analyze the gritty details. The Iron Horde were not attempting to Genocide the Draenei, they were trying to keep them contained and suppressed enough to keep them from getting in the way. There is also a lot there to unpack about how the ruthless environmental pressures of their homeworld shaped the Orcish dispositions. But … man … that damage was just another gutpunch to “villain batting Horde races”.
4 Likes
I still remember the pre patch for cata when Thrall made garrosh warchief and Vol’jin was a contentious prick from the onset not really ever offering to help and telling garrosh who had said he shouldn’t be warchief that he would be a bad warchief.
I like Vol, but he was kind of a jerk from the get go garrosh’s reign.
1 Like
I like Vol because he was kind of jerk during Garrosh’s rein. He, like Cairne, really did not like how the kid operated and Jin outright stated he was only willing to support Garrosh out of consideration to his friendship with Thrall. Though, despite the flak, Baine was right there along with Jin for a lot of that.
Granted, Jin was always more that sort. His relationship with Sylvanas was similarly prickly. He was one of the few Horde racial leaders that really ran that line of Idealism and Pragmatism really well. Granted, I’m biased, because he was my favorite Horde character for quite some time. Love the Darkspear.
11 Likes
I said from the start lol, which explains why garrosh didn’t like vol not want his counsel. Why would I trust someone that expects me to fail and hopes for it? Cause that’s essentially what vol said lol.
Darkspear nevah die, but no like I understand why Vol didn’t like garrosh, but he didn’t want to help garrosh nor died garrosh Want his help after all the insults.
No, Sylvanas didn’t make contact with the Jailor until after Arthas was dead, and even if Sylvanas was more responsible for the Wrathgate than she let on, that doesn’t change Varimathras’ involvement and the fact that he and Putress tried to assassinate Sylvanas and take over Undercity. Varimathras was absolutely still working for the Legion, he stayed in contact with Balnazzar. He was deeply involved in the development of the Blight going back to at least the Vanilla time frame, and had at least some Forsaken loyal to him over Sylvanas even at that point that knew at least in part what his agenda was. Both Sylvanas and Varimathras seemed to have been planning on using the Blight for their own ends eventually, but Putress and Varimathras beat Sylvanas to the punch at the Wrathgate.
1 Like
Ground zero is still Thrall going up to Garrosh—who is depressed, mind you, about his father selling out his own people—and exaggerating Grom’s greatness while downplaying his faults, rather than acknowledging both the positives and negatives.
Once Thrall made Grom out to be this grand hero who could do no wrong, even after Garrosh already knew about the felblood corruption, the rest was history waiting to unfold.
2 Likes
I agree with that, I’m still upset at the interviews that hinted at garrosh growing and maturing
1 Like
Not to mention how his demonstration in Stonetalon was an exception or “non-canon,” or whatever BS reason they stated because they wanted to villain-bat him in Mists.
3 Likes
I mean not only that, but in every other single timeline, Garrosh is basically the best warchief the horde ever had.
5 Likes