How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Karserd-ragnaros (Karserd)]

I agree with most of what you say, it cannot be overstated how damaging the pacing of all this was, most of these problems come from that, if the events wouldve resolved sooner they wouldnt have the same negative impact as they did, of course when you’re fed with this garbage story line for a couple of years no amount of pay off will justify sitting here stewing on virtual hate.

Again they KNOW their story developments do take patches to complete and they still insisted on pushing this mess of a narrative.

[Erriden-moon-guard]

@Ariël-drakkari

Sooooo… they had their own noses so far up their behinds they became high with their own farts, then?

Well you got to look at the history of why Garithos was promoted, it was indeed because of nepotism but not for a love of Garithos and what he was doing but more for his father who died protecting his village he ruled and citizens against an orcish attack. The town was wiped out, Garithos lost all of his relatives there and blamed the elves for diverting alliance forces to Quel’thalas. He was still a humans first guy though soooooo he very easily was a racist bloke, and the only reason he actually gained “legitimacy” and aid from other allies of the alliance of old was because he was the only remaining man of rank from lordaerons military and was viewed as being a powerful warlord in the area with his large civilian/mercenary esque army he had.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I think, ultimately, moral quandaries need to be framed around digestible choices where people could meaningfully line up on either side. Take Garrosh’s motivations for war. Do you risk having your people starve and strive for a peaceful solution? Or do you take what you need in a war? I have my opinion, Horde players have theirs, and that prior to MOP was the essence of a good moral controversy.

I think playing into disagreements of that type are really the only way to have a sustainable narrative. I also think there is plenty of fertile ground for these types of conflicts - areas Warcraft has touched on before.

The Culling of Stratholme is a good example of a quandary that people still debate. There are really a ton of potential paths. Starvation or expansion. Ends justifying the means (in conflict). Order/security or freedom. Reasonable people will disagree on where to draw the line on these topics.

And I absolutely agree that if they wait years to explain the higher level morality involved, it hurts both factions during the time in between. Since the elephant in the room is Teldrassil, if burning Teldrassil -at that exact moment with no time to explain or save people- would destroy a freed N’zoth which has almost corrupted Azeroth (the world soul) and is wrecking everyone on Azeroth (the planet) then the narrative changes dramatically.

Clearly that’s a pretty absurd hypothetical so please forgive me regarding it. The point is that reasonable people would disagree whether there had to be a better way, whether there was time to save people, whether we could have won without destroying so many, and many other questions.

[Erriden-moon-guard]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

He hunts for dangerous artifacts, he cackles and drowns Maiev’s friends.

Well Maiev and her wardens did keep him locked up and in a state of torture for 10,000 years, he couldn’t even kill himself due to the Magic’s of his cell so I can see why he drowned the wardens chasing him.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Vandraeda-kiljaeden

I have to ask, is there an impression among Alliance players that the Horde leadership isn’t trying to atone for both Sylvanas’ actions and their own complicity?

Yes. Because currently, it seems like they believe that by killing Sylvanas they will redeem themselves, when that is so far from the truth.

@Vandraeda-kiljaeden

The Horde isn’t saying “This was all Sylvanas, the rest of us are innocent,”

I’ll believe that when the council actually tries to make ammends, that doesn’t involve killing Sylvanas.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I’ve already provided examples as to why he didn’t “wait” until that moment to explain his motives, how he has attempted to do so in the past, and how the response has always been, time and time again, “You’re an evil demon, now die!”.

No you didn’t. I presented the conversation in the Tomb of Sargeras, which was his big chance to explain what he was doing, and he didn’t take it. You brushed past my statement that he should have been expected to do that, and now you’re grasping at straws like things that weren’t presented in the campaign, and this odd claim that Maiev evidently should have just let him go after his actions at Nendis out of some arcane procedure of jurisdiction - a word that Wardens probably wouldn’t even be familiar with given their history and MO.

The story presents Illidan as a villain until the very end. Then it shames the protagonists and audience for information that they weren’t aware of.

That is the key point - and to frame how this is relevant to the topic, let’s consider another example: Horde player investment.

Let’s take the War of the Thorns. Back when it was being revealed, there was a lot of speculation over just what happened to Teldrassil. But there was justification for the war. There were things going on in Silithus, Stormheim just went down, and frankly, it’s a faction rivalry. Blizzard was teasing that there was a good reason for this and a super cool twist that meant that the Horde wasn’t responsible for it. There was a lot of “morally grey” and “faction pride” rhetoric running around. Then Warbringers: Sylvanas came out and the message was “Just kidding, you’re evil”. You can see how one member of the audience reacts to this in real time in this video:

http^s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwFwTDMoido
Edit: Content warning - language

So, understandable motivations, promises of a balanced conflict “Morally grey” “faction pride”, “you’ll be surprised” - PSYCHE! Here’s some information that you didn’t have before that reframes your actions as EVIL.

… and I don’t like that method for going about things. It’s one of the reasons I don’t like Shadowlands. It’s taken the whole conflict and told the Horde “yeah, actually, you all were evil jerks because you helped this maniac send everyone to an undeserved eternity in hell. You did that - you just didn’t know you were doing it.”

I don’t like that - it removes the agency from the decision. It’s unfair to people making decisions of what to invest in.

[Azighan-thrall]

The issue with even that one simple thing is the way Blizzard has structured their story to function. Previous expansions are left in the dust once they have concluded and most of their characters will never be seen again.

BFA as an example, I expect Talanji and Kiro to pop out of the woodworks every now and then as the Zandalari Queen and Vulpera leader, but what of the other friends I made along the way? I have doubts the Raal, Lashk, Loti, or even Vorrik will ever be relevant to the story going forward and will remain in Zandalar for the remainder of the games life.

The Horde has no shortage of characters that COULD be something great, heck we memed Saurfang into relevance. Characters like Mankrik, Jevan Grimtotem, Boss Mida, Thura Saurfang, Kaz the Shrieker, Ty’jin, Belmont, Velonara, Rommath, and Sassy Hardwrench are examples of some of the familiar faces that have either been forgotten or are used so sparingly that they might as well be irrelevant.

So what is the best way to bring these characters forward as additional faces of their people? Not in the Shadowlands, Realm of Life, Lifelands, or Firelands 3.0: Ragnaros is Back Baby, that’s for sure. The focus needs to return to zones like Durotar and Tirisfal to showcase them and help us reattach ourselves to the races and faction we’re supposed to feel pride in.

[Erriden-moon-guard]

@Ariël-drakkari

You and me both; Warchief wasn´t “bad” as a concept itself, it just became “bad” to fulfill an agenda promoted by bad writting, period.

Lor’themar should’ve been warchief buuuut I fear they would’ve villain batted him if he had been named warchief.

[Jellex-wyrmrest-accord (Jellex)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The story presents Illidan as a villain until the very end. Then it shames the protagonists and audience for information that they weren’t aware of.

For a moment I had to scroll back up to your avatar to see that you weren’t Treng.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

…

I guess my frustration here is that the conversation was obviously getting out of its box and straying into points that don’t have to do with the overall concept being discussed. I know how that happens here, especially with block quoting - so I’ve got to draw a line somewhere.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

Well, considering the current writting team is not so subtly transforming him into a Calia cheerleader and plot device on her benefit, I wonder if him getting villain batted wasn´t still a better development path for him.

I know I personally rather see him gone in a blast than stay perma-whimpering like Baine.

He has the chops to pull a tragic villain trope (let´s say… a Michael Corleone type. I could accept that much better than his embarrasing depiction in pre-patch).

[Erriden-moon-guard]

I chalk it up as Lor being pragmatic and just wanting someone sensible at the head of the forsaken, but he’s just a character that’s at the mercy of the writers. I lived in MoP how he flipped a bench into the fountain in outrage at the purge, and stated “Don’t they understand?!? They push us ever closer into Garrosh’s horde.” To which Rommath responded “you would make a fine warchief.” And lor finished us off with “It may come to that.”

Lor is one of the few horde characters left I still love and call my leader when I’m on my Belf.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

I just have him on the dog house now as “punishment”, but as long as the issue stops right here let´s say I can tolerate the absurd depiction he got in pre-patch.

Btw, Calia is NOT a sensible option to consider as head of the Forsaken when she literally ignores the bulk of the race AND basically puts her foot on her mouth 9 times out of 10. Lorthemar´s dialogue in pre-patch was nothing but blatant execution of semi-likeable character being used as plot device so a Pet character gets screentime.

[Erriden-moon-guard]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Depends on what you’re doing. The training we do can be very demanding at times and the extra calories help keep us going between meals. And, no, there are many times where having a between meal snack is not feasible.

I feel this, my training and goals with it require me to be in a caloric surplus.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Ariël-drakkari

I love all of this… also maybe finally backtrack on the “neutral Dalaran” BS and let the Belf and Nightborne claim their rightful place as arcane authorities for the Horde that can be depicted just as competent and dangerous as the Kirin Tor, please?

I know responding to this was delayed, but I agree.

On top of just allowing the NBs to expand a bit into Azsuna and rebuild those territories and getting the BEs lands back on track … I would love for the Horde elves to oversee the development of a more comprehensive portal system between the Horde peoples. Which I do hope will come to include the Forest Trolls and Frostwolves of EK, as well as the Steamwheedle, Farraki, and Grimtotem of Kali.

A Grim Rail system on Kali is useful for transferring bulk resources, but if we really want the Horde to grow as a comprehensive package … we need that distance between each of its parts to become less of an issue. And the only ones who can solve that effectively are our Elves.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

@Velskàr-stormrage

I’ve already provided examples as to why he didn’t “wait” until that moment to explain his motives, how he has attempted to do so in the past, and how the response has always been, time and time again, “You’re an evil demon, now die!”.

No you didn’t.

See: Post #415, specifically:

@Velskàr-stormrage

Illidan: The leader of the undead has been destroyed, and the forests will heal in time.

Malfurion: At the cost of your soul? You are no brother of mine!

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I presented the conversation in the Tomb of Sargeras, which was his big chance to explain what he was doing.

His “big chance to explain what he was doing”…was when Maiev and her Watchers had him cornered and were ready to execute him on sight?

Really? That’s what you’re going with?

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

You brushed past my statement that he should have been expected to do that

That’s not a statement, it’s your own opinion. You expected him to do this.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

…this odd claim that Maiev evidently should have just let him go after his actions at Nendis out of some arcane procedure of jurisdiction

Heh, “arcane procedure of jurisdiction.”

So…which of us is grasping at straws, again?

To review:

1. Tyrande freed Illidan from prison.
2. Malfurion banished him.
3. Illidan was on his way out of the night elf lands, and set sail for the Great Sea.

There was literally no reason for Maiev, let alone Malfurion or Tyrande, to chase after him to begin with, outside of personal vendetta.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

• a word that Wardens probably wouldn’t even be familiar with given their history and MO.

The Wardens have a history and habit of defying their superiors’ orders and pursuing their own, vengeful version of “justice”?

Yup, I can see that.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

…to frame how this is relevant to the topic, let’s consider another example: Horde player investment.

Yes, let’s. Because going back to “Ground Zero” here, with Post #384:

@Velskàr-stormrage

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Granted, Horde posters might (rightfully) point out that this is inter-alliance moral posturing.

That is also true.

Lest you forget, we demon hunters have had a similar experience with our more natural Kaldorei brethren.

It’s why I can understand the reasoning of so many Horde players who say they want the Alliance to either commit genocide and be villainized for it, or at the very least be shown as actively considering it.

And this is monumentally important, because going back to your point, which you have made on several occasions:

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

He was presented as a villain, until suddenly the story whipped out information that no one knew or had any reason to know. That’s why I object to this idea that the characters opposing him appeared to just be bigots who didn’t understand him.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

This creates the problem of the player and the characters having what appears to have a completely justified reason to go after the character, who is again, framed as a villain until Blizzard pulls the bait and switch.

I’ve already pointed out why this might come off as sounding pretty horrific where the Horde is concerned, but just in case anyone needs a reminder:

@Velskàr-stormrage

This is literally like saying, “the humans’ treatment of the orcs after the Second War was okay, because they didn’t know any better.”

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Velskar, what are you arguing at this point?

You say that you can understand the reasoning of Horde players for wanting the Alliance to be villainized, or to have their actions shown, saying that you have a similar experience with the Kaldorei. How does this make sense when you’re simultaneously arguing against my claims about how Illidan was presented?

If you want to argue that the presentation wasn’t fair to demon hunters - just say so. You’re not going to get me to agree that Maiev shouldn’t chase down someone who just murdered civilians, but it wouldn’t take much to persuade me that Illidan’s narrative treatment in that campaign and in BC was pretty uncharitable to him and what was later stated to be what he stood for.

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

it was explained, the Alliance in their current post-BfA state does not have the power to wipe out the Horde without immense cost.

To be fair that’s meaningless in WoW. Even back during MoP the Alliance had to conscript farmers and peasants and what came of it? It’s the old numbers game we all know. It should show us how dire a situation is, but nothing ever comes from it.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Velskar, what are you arguing at this point?

Read my post.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

You say that you can understand the reasoning of Horde players for wanting the Alliance to be villainized, or to have their actions shown, saying that you have a similar experience with the Kaldorei. How does this make sense when you’re simultaneously arguing against the very point that you’re holding up as an indication that I’m contradicting you?

…you really have no idea what you’re talking about, do you?
Demon hunters have a similar experience to Horde players (primarily orcs), because we’re both judged unfairly for past crimes, and not allowed the room to grow or change.

It’s not complicated; it’s literally the primary theme of the overall series.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

If you want to argue that the presentation wasn’t fair to demon hunters - just say so.

I did. You’re making this more complicated than it is.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kazthan-argent-dawn

To be fair that’s meaningless in WoW.

Lets just assume that its true for the sake of argument though. We will take it at face value that the majority of the less idealistic Alliance leaders just did not want to commit to wiping out the Horde because of the cost it would require. As they implied. Thus, if that cost was offset in some way (like, for example, the introduction of a 3rd party force like the Lightbound, that the Alliance at least has no reason to be wary of) … that shift in power could provide enough incentives for an attempt.