So I suppose I’m a large part of the problem here by bringing up the treatment of Illidan by the Night Elves (which is off topic from this thread).
I can try to bring it full circle by saying I would love if the Horde were written similar to Illidan. In a super simplified narrative, Illidan was willing to sacrifice everything to protect Azeroth, even undertaking actions that were extreme (with possibly horrible consequences). He did this because he knew it was the only way to protect Azeroth.
The Night Elves were willing to use him when convenient for them while still maintaining their views, banishing and imprisoning him after he had saved them. They ignored Maiev’s renegade vendetta.
As a hypothetical, let’s pretend the Alliance (and Horde) armies failed to contain N’zoth and instead were losing in a terribly costly battle.
Lor’thermar (pick a character, for funsies imagine it being Gazlowe) undertakes a ritual that results in the death of a large group of unwittingly involved Blood Elves as well as making his arms burn off (whatever). Heck, we can make everyone mad and make it everyone within some amount of distance from him and have some folks from every race. Ultimately though, it utterly destroys N’zoth and rolls back all of his corruption.
Alliance folks might recoil in horror at the actions taken and the innocent lives lost. Horde folks might point out that the actions saved many more lives that would’ve been spent in a losing effort. At least both sides can have a leg to stand on at the end. Right now the Horde doesn’t.
My issue with Illidan is that they come around to that conclusion later - and think about what this means from an MMO perspective. BC presented Illidan as black in terms of morality. Eight years passed before his reasons were presented. Now imagine that happening to an entire faction. Let’s say that Sylvanas does reveal her reasons for Teldrassil - eight years later. For me, that would feel pretty cheap as its just invalidated my concerns - and for the Horde, you gave them eight years of making them feel evil. I can’t see that as an appropriate approach.
I think, ultimately, moral quandaries need to be framed around digestible choices where people could meaningfully line up on either side. Take Garrosh’s motivations for war. Do you risk having your people starve and strive for a peaceful solution? Or do you take what you need in a war? I have my opinion, Horde players have theirs, and that prior to MOP was the essence of a good moral controversy.
Just one six inch pancake has 175 calories. I count around 4 in your emoji there - getting us to 700 calories. 0.2 cup of maple syrup is 220 calories. 920 in total. Throw in the butter and were at 956 in total.
Depends on what you’re doing. The training we do can be very demanding at times and the extra calories help keep us going between meals. And, no, there are many times where having a between meal snack is not feasible.
So, you’re using the game’s intro as inarguable evidence that Illidan slaughtered innocent civilians, if I’m understanding that correctly.
Do you realize that the wording of the mission’s intro is deliberately-biased, in order to form a specific perspective in the player’s mind? Especially given the later revelations re: the main character, Maiev?
Ok, great – you’ve established that Illidan made a pact with a bloodthirsty race that hates the Kaldorei.
Are we really going with “guilt by association” now?
We already know the naga had weapons from the opening cinematic, which they brought with them from Nazjatar. There’s no reason to be snarky.
There isn’t; literally nothing else in the Warcraft series indicates that Illidan actively enjoys massacring civilian populations ala the Burning Legion.
I’m honestly not sure if you even know what your point is, outside of your (very obvious) anti-Illidan bias.
Which is pretty recognizable, since I’ve had the misfortune of having this exact same debate with about 3 other players now.
He was presented as an anti-hero.
There’s a difference, which you seem to be unaware of.
See, now you’re the one missing the point.
This is literally like saying, “the humans’ treatment of the orcs after the Second War was okay, because they didn’t know any better.”
Ok, except they were bigots who didn’t understand him.
More importantly, they were bigots who didn’t want to understand him, as demonstrated by every interaction in which Illidan actually did try to explain his motives.
Then I mistook your intent. The current Horde leaders are not to blame for Teldrassil’s destruction, beyond that they made it possible by lending their troops to the war of thorns. But they are extremely guilty for not doing anything to undermine her until long after the tragedy itself, despite being able to.
I can’t see this as anything more than wanting to defend your side - Illidan’s forces deliberately killed civilians, and the game gave us no reason at the time to explain why. This creates the problem of the player and the characters having what appears to have a completely justified reason to go after the character, who is again, framed as a villain until Blizzard pulls the bait and switch.
I gave you your evidence, and you seemed to agree with me at least that the same problem cropped up in BC. These problems preclude mere bigotry from being the appropriate flaw to reference here - because we have examples of him causing real harm. He unleashed the Naga, they are doing his bidding, and innocent people are dying when we open that campaign. This is not a Garithos-like situation of Maiev not liking Illidan because of how he appears, it’s because of the crap that he does.
If Maiev was merely chasing Illidan, and Illidan shouts back that Maiev isn’t understanding the bigger picture - to which she merely screams out that he’s a demon and needs to be put down, then I’d agree with you. But we don’t have that.
We don’t even have it in the Tomb of Sargeras. This is their conversation:
Illidan Stormrage:So, Warden Shadowsong, you’ve made it at last. I knew you would.
Maiev Shadowsong:You have much to pay for, Illidan. I’m taking you back to your cell.
Illidan Stormrage:Naivete does not suit you. When I consumed the power of Gul’dan’s skull, I inherited his memories, especially those of this place… and the dark prize he coveted.
Maiev Shadowsong:Yes, the power of Sargeras. You would claim it as your own!
Illidan Stormrage:That power is beyond my reach, little warden. But this–
Illidan Stormrage:–the Eye of Sargeras–contains all the power I’ll need to rid this wretched world of my enemies once and for all. Ironic that you should be its first victim.
Maiev Shadowsong:You’re insane!
Illidan Stormrage:Isolation can do that to the mind. Now, after all the long centuries you kept me chained in darkness, it is only fitting that I bury you in turn.
Illidan channels on the eye, causing the chamber to start collapsing. A pile of rocks falls down behind Maiev and the Watchers, blocking their exit from the chamber.
You said that the “bigots” didn’t want to understand him, right? “As demonstrated by every interaction in which Illidan actually did try to explain his motives.”? Where is that here? Where does he say “Maiev, you don’t understand, I’m doing this to save the world from the scourge.” Where does Maiev even damn him for anything other than what he either did or plans to do? Where does he offer Maiev a chance to understand what he’s doing, and then to reject it? Where in this does the player derive that Illidan is anything but a black-as-tar villain?
I’ll tell you where - four missions later, at the end, after Malfurion, Tyrande, and Maiev all believe that he’s got to be stopped. Only then, when Malfurion does stop him does he deign to tell anyone what he was doing - and no one knew or had reason to know beforehand.
If a crazy person was running around Downtown Phoenix and stabbing people - and the Phoenix PD stopped him, I wouldn’t call them bigots for not being aware that he was actually trying to save our fair city from a cosmic evil. I would say they were misinformed. That appears to be what’s going on here.
Ah, right…it isn’t—the player is merely told this, which is kind of an important difference when it comes to storytelling.
A similar “bait and switch,” to use your expression, as what happened between the Second and Third Wars.
Having a change in character knowledge and perception isn’t a bad thing for a story, as demonstrated all throughout both Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne.
Again, correction: we are told that innocent people are dying when we open that campaign.
Just like we are told (or rather, Malfurion is told) that Tyrande was “torn apart by the undead.”
We players, of course, know that this is a lie, because we were shown otherwise.
Which, prior to The Frozen Throne, included what, exactly?
Turning into a demon to destroy a Legion lieutenant?
Being freed from prison?
She’s also just as pissed at Tyrande, her superior, for making the (executive) decision to free Illidan during wartime, even going so far as to suggest that Tyrande should “be the one locked in a cage.”
In any real-life military scenario, this would be an instant discharge, considering Maiev’s behavior.
No, but we do have it at the end of the Night Elf campaign, as I have already shown you.
So Maiev has already declared her intention to return Illidan to his cell.
Where is that chance for her to understand, you ask?
Like I said, she doesn’t want to 'understand.' She’s already made up her mind here, as demonstrated by her next line:
Which Illidan is quick to explain:
Ok, so Illidan wants the power to rid the world of his enemies. That in itself doesn’t make him a villain. As far as intending to make Maiev its victim, guess what? She is his enemy. She has willingly chosen by this point to make herself his enemy, from the second she chose to pursue him, and certainly when she stated her intention to return him to prison.
She’s had plenty of opportunities to say, “What are you really up to? What is your plan?”
She doesn’t—instead we get self-righteous one-liners like:
And if anything, this is probably one of the most interesting aspects of Illidan’s character: He knows that others view him as a power-crazed demon, but he never tries to persuade them otherwise, if only because he knows that it’s a lost cause (see again: the ending transcript from “A Destiny of Flame and Sorrow”).
Every time Illidan has tried to explain his reasoning in the past, he has been vilified, spat on, imprisoned, and banished.
Why on Azeroth would the same vengeance-crazed Warden who served as his jailer for ten-thousand years be any different?
You mean when Malfurion has forcibly bound him in vines, Maiev’s about to execute him, and Illidan literally has no other choice?
Yes, and those who were part of the Horde at the time acknowledge that. Lor’themar in particular specifically expresses that he wishes he’d confronted Sylvanas when he first started having concerns about where she was headed, that his personal history with her got in the way of him making the right choice when it counted, and that as a result of his bad judgement he has a personal responsibility to do what he can both to stop Sylvanas from causing further harm, and to make sure nothing like Teldrassil ever happens again. To that end, he immediately tasks the Farstriders with hunting her down after the end of the war campaign, he supports punishing unrepentant loyalists, and he jumps at the chance to hunt down loyalist Dark Rangers in Shadows Rising.
As for the timing of the Horde turning against Sylvanas, I agree that it should have been much sooner, preferably during 8.0, but pacing of the story is also awkward because it’s bound to the patch cycle, and the patch cycle doesn’t accurately reflect the time between events. Like I said previously, everyone who is currently still part of the Horde save Geya’rah (who wasn’t recruited until after the War of Thorns) was starting to speak against Sylvanas by 8.1, with several characters indicating that they were considering their options on what move to make next. If BfA matches up with other recent expansions, then the entirety of the events of the expansion took place over the course of a single year, and the time from the beginning of the War of Thorns to Saurfang’s death was a matter of months. It’d be difficult to show the story moving any faster within the confines of the game’s patch cycle, and I say that as someone who wanted Lor’themar to go after Sylvanas for Teldrassil as soon as it happened.
I have to ask, is there an impression among Alliance players that the Horde leadership isn’t trying to atone for both Sylvanas’ actions and their own complicity? If so, that doesn’t line up with what was shown in game during the Horde campaign. You may think it isn’t enough, and I understand if that’s the case, but don’t pretend that it isn’t there at all. The Horde isn’t saying “This was all Sylvanas, the rest of us are innocent,” they’re saying “We’re focused on Sylvanas right now because she’s still a threat to everyone, and we must do our part to stop her.”
“Where is this shown” - In the mission as they are burning villages. as I said - you can find this on Youtube. The spoken and written content ties in to what the player is seeing.
“Having a change in character knowledge and perception isn’t a bad thing for a story.” Not necessarily, but it does complicate attempts to call people bigoted on the basis of what information they were reacting to.
Your next block was addressed.
“Prior to the Frozen Throne” - Here you may have a point. Malfurion and Tyrande confront Illidan after he defeats Tichondrius - you know, that act that if not done would have made the Third War a loss? Malfurion dismisses him for nothing more than his appearance. So, fair cop there - good point. Doesn’t undo his framing as a villain in the frozen throne, however, which Maiev’s attitude towards Tyrande has nothing to do with.
“She doesn’t want to understand”
That’s not the point. The point is that Illidan doesn’t give her, or the audience a chance to understand what he’s after. He’s unhelpfully vague about who “his enemies” are, which is particularly troubling given that we know by this point that he’s recruited a race of hateful former elves who have a stated intent of exterminating the Night Elves.
I also like that you tried to put the burden of Illidan’s explanation on Maiev, but I don’t think its her, or the audience’s job to give him the benefit of the doubt here. We have evidence that he and his forces have done heinous things. He needs to explain that if you are going to expect the audience to sympathize with him, or if you are going to condemn Maiev for chasing him.
Edit: If he gives that point and then she rejects it, now we’ve got a ball game - but he doesn’t, and hence we don’t.
“You mean when Malfurion has forcibly bound him in vines, Maiev’s about to execute him, and Illidan literally has no other choice?”
Yes - and this is the problem - that he waits until now to give the characters, and the audience, any indication that he’s not merely a villain.
Now, if you want to take all of that and tell me that Illidan’s character was mishandled, I could agree with that. I can’t agree with where you’re going in the attempt to frame the characters in the Frozen Throne as mere bigots though. His actions and his refusal to explain them provide the cover they need for their actions.
It depends actually in the schedule he IS following… if he´s mostly undertaking physical activity, then carbohydrates are preferable considering they´re chemically speaking the “quickest” source of energy available (the metabolism
and enzimatic machine required to extract ATP from carbohydrates and sugars is waaay simpler than the one involved in extracting ATP from protein or God forbids, lipids -Lipids are enzimatic mayhem; and proteins too valuable a resource to reduce them to mere ATP source-); which guarantees he won´t undergo an anerobic enzimatic path in the muscle tissues and by proxy, avoiding a lesion in the muscle per se.
If he´s NOT undertaking constant physical activity then yes, a more balanced diet is preferable.
Returning to the topic at hand. I think the Horde would benefit from an expansion where we can just take a step back and focus on home to get back in touch with our roots. Take the time to reacquaint ourselves with what the Horde stands for and meet new characters while developing familiar faces.
I know I’d love to stand in a revamped Crossroads, now a full settlement than a simple outpost or in a heavily fortified Tarren Mill.
I think some element of this is going to be needed no matter what. Something has to be done to make the Horde relatable - give characters that people care about and don’t want to see get hurt, and give the Horde player something to hold onto and say “this is what I’m fighting to protect”.
The spoken and written content tells the player what (supposedly) happened.
What the player is shown are the remains of the village.
So by the logic I’ve employed twice now, you think humanity was perfectly-justified in abusing the orcs between Warcraft II and Warcraft III, simply because “they didn’t have enough information.”
Because I know I’ve made it clear that while I understand why the Alliance of Lordaeron did what it did—because yes, they were acting on limited information—that doesn’t make it morally correct.
Bigotry isn’t based on information or intelligence, it’s based on lack of information and intelligence. It’s based on ignorance.
That’s why it’s bigotry.
It actally has everything to do with it—Maiev already harbors a very visible grudge against both Tyrande and Illidan for this, despite the fact that, again, Tyrande was her superior officer freeing a prisoner during wartime.
Politically, Maiev had no right to argue or debate that decision.
That’s not a denial.
Sure he has; he fled from her. She chased him. By the time they get to the Tomb of Sargeras, the time for talking is long gone.
Considering his last big act was to rid Felwood of Tichondrius and the Burning Legion, it’s kind of a no-brainer.
Who the naga never would have actually encountered if not for Maiev.
Did you ever notice that, by the way? That the only “attack” Illidan’s naga launch on Kaldorei society is them cutting through Azshara and Nendis to secure a ship for Illidan?
He doesn’t rampage through Ashenvale.
He doesn’t attack Teldrassil or Mount Hyjal or Moonglade.
He flees out to sea.
Which means that if the naga want to slay some night elves, Maiev’s forces are fair game because she chose to lead them into that situation in the first place.
Isn’t it?
Maiev was his jailer. Tyrande as the leader of the night elves chose to free Illidan.
After the battle in Felwood, Malfurion banishes Illidan from the night elf lands.
Illidan leaves.
Malfurion and Tyrande literally had zero problems with Illidan until, again, Maiev’s runner shows up and cries, “Help! Illidan is attacking us!”
On a series of isolated, abandoned islands in the middle of the Great Sea that the Kaldorei had virtually no authority or jurisdiction over.
I’ve already provided examples as to why he didn’t “wait” until that moment to explain his motives, how he has attempted to do so in the past, and how the response has always been, time and time again, “You’re an evil demon, now die!”.
