How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

Lore Story Forum
384

Wrong, the theme I put my finger on is "flaws and flawed behaviour done by political entities actually have negative consequences for both the character being impulsed by it´s flaw AND the flawed political entity; Garithos was just the example shown by Blizzard in WC3. Cause when one analyzes the whole “Belves vs. Garithos” arc and take into account Dalaran´s behaviour too, one realizes the only reason Garithos´flaw (in this case, bigotry) could hurt so monumentally the political faction itself (Belves were Alliance and then they weren´t and ended up becoming part of the enemy faction ffs, period) is thanks to hidden flaws inherently present in the political entity itself making this possible (represented by Dalaran´s apathy regarding one of their leaders getting an unlawful death penalty and them being totes chill with Garithos unlawful behaviour).

The Kirin Tor´s stance back in WC3 was moral hypocrisy at it´s finest, and an actual show of FLAWS of the Alliance faction being depicted AND aknowledged in-game.

Sorry man, that´s racial background, not factional one per se. As far as lore is concerned, your Nelf DH is STILL politically separated from the Alliance, period. He´s Illidari, nothing more and nothing less.

Just like my Belf DH is.

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385

Which leads us right back into the main problem with the Alliance right now: its sense of moral piousness and self-righteous superiority.

Yes, that is exactly what it is.

That is also true.

Lest you forget, we demon hunters have had a similar experience with our more natural Kaldorei brethren.

It’s why I can understand the reasoning of so many Horde players who say they want the Alliance to either commit genocide and be villainized for it, or at the very least be shown as actively considering it.

386

But that flaw is bigotry, no? I see it being expressed in both cases. For the Night Elves, it certainly seems to be something tied in to both the character and the political entity. I still don’t see the difference other than perhaps your reply to Velskar - about it being a racial issue rather than a factional issue.

I’m extremely confident in saying that we identify more with our races than we do our factions. We are visually reminded of who our character is every second that we play the game - and there certainly is a reason for why players like myself feel alienated from the Alliance - I’m sure you have to have noticed that.

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387

This is a lot of words just to say, “Garithos was a racist and alienated Kael’thas and the Blood Elves by trying to unlawfully execute them.”

Sorry, “man,” but I don’t need you to tell me who my character is.

So don’t.

Also, in case you haven’t noticed, racial backgrounds go hand-in-hand with faction loyalties in this game. That being said,

I have to question if you read my entire post, or are just cherry-picking the parts that will best fit your “argument.” Because considering I went on to say

I feel like you’re deliberately ignoring the parts that won’t let you misquote me—try not to do that.

I would also point out that, arguably, night elf demon hunters had more reason to join Illidan than blood elves did; the Kaldorei have an entire history with the Legion.

You were just lent out by Kael’thas.

388

Let’s try to keep this cordial. I don’t think Ariel is intentionally misreading your post. Bridging perspectives in this franchise is difficult enough as it is.

389

The Night Elf treatment of Illidan is one of the biggest stains on their reputation. Or at least on Tyrande and Malfurion.

Maybe that’s hyperbole, but whatever. Because of him, we are now prepared.

Lord Illidan knows the way.

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390

The flaw has always been bigotry—that’s been a staple since the very first Warcraft game…or at the very least, the lore of it ala The Last Guardian. It seems to be a recurring theme in multi-racial fantasy worlds (Middle Earth, Azeroth, even Runescape’s Gielinor) that “More Races = More Racial Prejudice.”

I like to think that’s deliberate for the purposes of learning experience for the players (or at least, it used to be prior to, say, Cata - Mists).

It’s also why I identify most with the neutral factions (Illidari, Ebon Blade, etc.), and why, out of all the heroes, I’ve always felt drawn most to characters like Illidan. Because we are shown time and time again that characters who puts their own biases first are complete morons, considering:

  1. The Burning Legion
  2. The Scourge
  3. The Old Gods

When you have world-destroying threats popping up every other week, you literally cannot afford to engage in a world-destroying race war.

And yet, we’re expected to believe that in the wake of Legion, both major factions miraculously still have enough remaining forces to do just that.

Again.

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391

I’d hop on my red boy but I’m maining my dk here but you just need to “do better” jk, lord bfa is forever gonna be a stain.

392

Eeeeh, I know I’m probably in the extreme minority here, but I know this isn’t applicable in my case. Before Cataclysm and then especially in BFA, any story interest I had was purely faction-related as a whole. The extent of my interest in playing a troll is limited to the hadoken casting animation. And I remember that I did try making an effort to “force myself” to like the race, but it just didn’t click.

(I once made the comment that I was disappointed that WotLK lacked a troll raid because I viewed the whole thing as a meme tradition that WoW broke)

I remember a few months back, I made a flippant comment to you about “if you don’t like how night elves are being portrayed, you can always race change to something else you like” and you informed me that character attachment just doesn’t work that way. For me, the faction as a whole was the only thing I really had an attachment for as a concept.

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393

I dunno - it’s kind of hard to predict… and to illustrate that, let me share a bit about my character.

This character was one that I RPed as a Warden. She wasn’t in the barrow dens when Tyrande raided them, and being injured at Nendis prevented her from getting killed at the Tomb of Sargeras or dying in Outland. Regarding Tyrande’s barrow dens raid - this character was terrified that if she was there, she would have done exactly as her comrades had done - because based on everything she knew, Illidan was dangerous - there was a reason he was locked away.

But, only Illidan could defeat Tichondrius, and without Tichondrius’s death, the world would have been lost. Tyrande didn’t know that - she probably didn’t know who Tichondrius was, what the skull of Guldan was, or that it was even there for Illidan to use. So, clearly this was Elune’s plan, and by defying Tyrande, her comrades were defying Elune.

I wrote this as being the catalyst for a crisis of faith that shook the character for years. She would defer to priestesses from then on for every little thing - because who knows? Maybe jumping off of this cliff is part of Elune’s plan, and not doing so may lead to some unknown chain of events that could end in Azeroth’s destruction?

That’s a little silly - but the point that I’m trying to highlight with this is that, especially concerning characters like Illidan and forces like Arcane magic, Blizzard tends to justify that flavor of narrative shaming by introducing new information that the characters in the story could not have possibly had before. If Illidan was really training a secret army of demon-hunting supersoldiers for GOOD reasons - why didn’t he just… say that? Why did he team up with Fel Orcs and set them against the Alliance and the Horde in Hellfire Penninsula? What exactly was Xe’ra on about in shaming the player for things that they had no way of knowing about?

More importantly - how does that translate into an actual moral flaw if the basis of that flaw is pretty much: not being able to read the script?

Like, I’d get it if Tyrande knew that Illidan had some power that he could use in that fashion - but she didn’t. She just figured that he might be a good ally. It was a gamble. That’s not a good reason in my mind to say that, in the instance I mentioned - that the Wardens were wrong. They just lacked information that no character in the story had.

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394

She would look at this very same problem being used back in WC3 to seed the catastrophes that destroyed them and the world back then.

To put it simple the depiction of the Alliance in WC3 was basically about them being so high on their own self righteous farts they never realized they were the perfect seed for terrible individuals rising to power (Kel´Thuzad) and the very destruction of their political body.

In regards to Garithos as a character? Yes. In regards to the faction? No. I´d say the actual “fatal flaw” of the Alliance in WC3 was a combination of self-righteousness and overconfidence (basically their pride got so out of control it ended up bitting them in their behinds in several fronts -Arthas, Kel´thuzad, the Scarlet Crusade, Garithos, Blackmoore… the Alliance from WC3 is so sure they´re “in the right” they don´t even bother with questioning the questionable actions of their political, military and/or religious leaders… chillingly enough, VERY similar to Stormheim esque narratives. Thew only difference is that in Stormheim the Alliance was retroactively protected to avoid the consequences of their flaws; and this has been a common trend since Vanilla-).

I disagree, this “approach” to the game varies with each player. Why do you think I never could relate emotionally and intelectually with the Alliance in the “Age” of LoTR becoming pop culture? Simple, because for me it was miles more relatable and entertaining to see different people with different cultural backgrounds and a mountain of flaws fighting and working together to collectivelly suceed and survive -THAT was what the Horde was about in WC3-. I´m a Horde First, Belf second player.

“Woman”.

Also, chill out, cause I think you got my point wrong.

Not necessarily; this became a “trend” after TBC.

Nope, I jst disagree with the notion that “Bigotry” was the fatal flaw of the Alliance (it was the fatal flaw of Garithos but not of the Alliance per se, their fatal flaw was prideful self-righteousness imho because that was what made possible Garithos excesses -the lack of policing on his amoral actions by the rest of the Alliance as a political and military entity-).

Ergo, why I said NB didn´t felt for me the same as the Belves did, cause while their stories are ridiculously similar, the NB didn´t had to deal with the faction itself failing them and making possible the “racial harrasement” they got by a leader in charge in the first place. Tyrande WAS related to them by race, but NOT by politics. The Alliance didn´t “fail” the NB simply because NB weren´t even Alliance in the first place, period.

I always saw the NB rolling Horde less of a “QQQ ugly Turande insulting us!!” and more as “OK, Tyrande STILL doesn´t like us and her allies seem to be ok with her -weird, they agree to asfixiating levels- and these other guys helped us more in the actual scheme of things so… let´s try with them?”.

Same here… my least favorite are Regular Tauren and Huojin Pandaren and that thanks to them being so ridiculusly underdeveloped I feel they lack actual flaws and growth and exposition -they seem too “bland” in comparison to the other Horde races-.

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395

I may have a favorite PC race (Goblins obviously), but honestly … I love all the races of the Horde.

There may have been leaders that I felt were too oppressive for the good of their people’s racial fantasies, but there is not a single PC race that I dislike conceptually. I am a fan of THE HORDE. I want to see all the parts (even the new ones) treated with the respect and care that they deserve. The themes of the WC3 Horde, not the aesthetics, are what drew me to the faction … and I feel each race of the Horde can be made to embody that in their own way. Its why I will say that the ARs of BfA were the only good thing we got (and yes, that includes the Vulpera). I want to see and help the Horde to excel, succeed, and prosper.

Its why as a Gob fan, I can feel I was treated fairly well in BfA. There were good gob stories and good gob characters within that expansion; probably more than we’ve had since the Bilgewater intro tbh. But as a Horde fan, I feel truly miserable. Because those other races I like and care for have been treated so poorly and carelessly, right along with the Faction as a whole.

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396

This is partially in reply to Ariel as well - but I do speak generally, and I speak from the basis of my awareness of the overwhelming power and memorability of visual information, as well as the mimesis effect. That doesn’t speak to every person’s personal proclivities - just to general trends, and we tend to see that here.

When I talk to Micah for example, I’m talking to a dyed-in-the wool worgen player. If I’m talking to Xamantul, I see someone who wants to have the trolls take over Stromgarde. If you’re talking to me, I’m interested in the Night Elves. Droite loves her goblins, etc. I am again still confident that in the mind of most players, the racial lore comes before the faction lore, which isn’t to say that the faction lore doesn’t matter - just that it doesn’t completely explain how people feel.

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397

Did you miss the part where the night elves locked him up for 10,000 years because he tried to recreate the Well of Eternity in case the Legion ever returned?

Illidan was literally an elf with eyes of felfire and demonic tattoos on his body. If he suddenly went up to Malfurion and said, “So, I had this vision of how the Legion is immortal and infinite and can’t be stopped unless we kill them in the Twisting Nether,” how do you think Malfurion would have reacted?

Or, to follow your point, let’s look at the one time Illidan did try to explain his motivations, back in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne:

Malfurion: It is over, brother. Your vile schemes end here.

Maiev: Illidan Stormrage, for recklessly endangering countless lives and threatening the very balance of the world, I hereby sentence you to death!

Illidan: Fools! Can you not see? The spell we channeled was meant to strike at the undead–our common enemy! My mission was to destroy the Lich King’s stronghold of Icecrown!

Malfurion: At no heed to the cost? Because of you, Tyrande is dead!

And then the conversation derails into Maiev being a liar and a traitor, and Illidan and Malfurion go off to save Tyrande.

As for the question of whether massive earthquakes and melting polar ice caps was worth the one chance to destroy the Lich King for good (probably)?

Yeah, that just gets swept under the rug.

Because at the end of the day, 90% of all people in World of Warcraft—from Alliance to Horde, leader and soldier alike—look at Illidan and see only a demon.

From that point on, their minds are already made up; it’s bigotry-by-appearance all over again.

She actually did; Tyrande says outright:

He would be the perfect ally against the undead and their demon masters!"

This isn’t just Tyrande saying, “Illidan’s a powerful warrior.” This is Tyrande acknowledging Illidan as a demon hunter. It’s literally why he was incarcerated in the first place, because he wielded demonic powers which Tyrande (rightly) recognized could bring about a turning point during the Third War.

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398

Personally, I don’t feel that alienating a potential ally is as big a deal as harming a current ally, when it comes to establishing “moral greyness.” You need to have the betrayal of established bonds, rather than the loss of potential ones, to get the full impact.

You could add nepotism leading to Garithos being in a position of power in the first place.

399

And this Kyalin, is unfortunately an assumption you shouldn´t make… cause there are weirdoes like me that actually care about the races of the faction and the faction itself as a whole much more than they care over their favs. Why do you think I fight so “passionately” over Forsaken issues like Calia when they aren´t my fav? Cause it hurt me too to see them being abused by the writers with their ridiculously bad writting standards. In a way, I topo got “abused” by Afriasiabi et al stupid narrative agenda of BfA.

And this Pellex, basically resumes why some people STILL can´t figure out why Belves rolled Horde, for example. And why them rolling Horde actually made perfect sense.

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400

Except that by nature it was the betrayal of established bonds; Tyrande was at Suramar as the Alliance Emissary.

This would be like if the Prime Minister of England went to France to seek help during a war against Germany, only to go, “I don’t like French people.”

France proceeds to join Germany during the war, unsurprisingly.

Now England has to explain to its allies (Spain, USA, whoever) about why the people they were sent to recruit turned on them.

It’s very much a diplomatic situation ruined by bias.

401

Which is bad. But doesn’t have the same impact as, say, the Prime Minister of England allowing an English village to be destroyed because he thinks it will help … something.

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402

Are you on a winning roll or something? Cause THIS is a very accurate example on why some of us dislike Baine thanks to the Taurajo issue.

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403

Well, she isn’t wrong about me Ariel. I do care more about worgen issues than I do about alliance faction issues.

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