I am on mobile so I apologize for lack of detail. Many players have given up hope, indeed even I have given up on my own characters being part of the factions in my own RP, Horde and Alliance.
But if Warcraft is to continue we need some hope. Some content in SL leads me to believe Blizzard at least is not ignorant of the story problems and BFA’s mistakes completely. Some faith is required, or we would be better off focusing our efforts elsewhere. Let’s at least take heart that this issue matters a great deal to those invested in the story, and maybe that concern will be noted by Blizz. If all hope is lost, then subscribing is a mistake. We can at least take solace that we recognize a problem and want a solution, whatever it may be.
…heh. Anduin “morally” condemning Tyrande for being “consumed by vengeance.”
Please tell me you’re joking.
I suppose you also think it was “moral” of Anduin to basically tell Tyrande:
“Nope, screw you, we’re too busy trying to reclaim the ruins of an old human kingdom out in the middle of nowhere while also assaulting the island kingdom of a race of trolls who never attacked us to begin. We don’t have the forces needed to help our actual allies retake their lands.”
Honestly yeah, I’ve long been at the point where the only thing keeping me horde is meta reasons (mail for alts, and a guild I’ve enjoyed for over a decade) and if that wasn’t stopping me, I would have just flipped alliance by now. I just want Blizzard to pull the trigger and bring down the faction barrier for players so I’m not “stuck” on this side anymore.
Like, I don’t actually want horde storylines or characters anymore.
I mean, no. Look at how the epilogue cinematic was framed. Look at what they’re doing with Shandris’s character, look at the position they’ve elevated Anduin to.
I agree that it’s a garbage message - but they seem to be sending it nonetheless.
No matter what happens to her, that 's NPC-on-NPC talk. Meringue claimed that the Alliance PC is “constantly treated as though they did just as much wrong” as the Horde PC.
I didn’t say the Alliance got nothing, but again, Meringue claimed the treatment was equal in BfA, and it simply wasn’t.
That said, I can’t remember any examples of the Alliance PC being lectured or shamed in BfA, off the top of my head. The Horde PC, however, got quite a lot of it.
Fair, but it’s everything that can be done, excluding time travel. I think the Horde can begin on the journey to become heroic again if bfa, or atleast all the death it caused, never happened. It’s a lot easier at the very least.
What cycle? The cycle of the Horde commiting atrocities, fighting themselves, and then evading punishment? Because that’s the cycle, and I want nothing more than to break it.
Cause it’s a damned drop in an ocean compared to what the Horde has done. An absolutely infitisimaly small speck, compared to the blots on the Horde’s side.
Oh I know the Alliance have done the Horde bad things. It’s just that they may as well be nothing in comparrison. Perhaps one day will understand this, so I won’t have to bust a vein while typing this out for the umpteenth time.
Because if they´re NOT part of it, then we can´t use them as an example of a political entity (the Alliance) having flawed individuals (Garithos & co.) willing to hurt it´s own brothers in arms thanks to their flaws influencing their behaviour… which is actually the modus operandi used every time Blizz pulls the “evul Warchief” narrative.
I think we saw the issue differently, I never saw Garithos as a political leader betraying third parties / political allies; I saw him as a political leader hurting his own thanks to his bigotry (you see… an actual flaw with consequences for the character).
If a story sends “garbage messages” then sorry, but the story then outlived it´s purpose and should actually stop being entertained, period.
I think the NPC on NPC talk answer doesn’t really attack the problem. Just like Leyara, Tyrande represents a position that a lot of Night Elf players in particular hold - and the attack is on that position, not on Tyrande personally. When I see that cinematic, I see Anduin saying that my motivations are evil. I see that as lecturing.
Again, I’m not making an equivalency argument with the Horde. I’m again trying to point out the mixed-bag nature of things so that I can better share my own perspective.
@ Velskar
The cinematic I’m referring to is when Anduin presents the peace treaty with the Horde in the Alliance embassy, which Tyrande refuses to sign.
Then ironically, you have more faith in the horde than I do, lol
A “heroic” story that comes with a big ol’ asterisk of “former genocide supporter” is one I have no investment in, no matter how well Blizzard wrote it.
This topic has brought me to a long-standing issue that I believe is far more important. How can we redeem/rebuild Warlocks?
I signed up to sacrifice life for power - lost life tap and hellfire. Whatever. I lost metamorphosis and had to have death coil renamed so death knights could have it. Fine. At least some major losses have been rolled back a bit (Mortal coil standard, howl of terror talentable again, etc).
But more importantly everyone is discussing faction villain batting? I’ve played as a Horde and Alliance Warlock. We’re universally reviled. Tehd’s the closest thing I have to major character role model.
Wilfred Fizzlebang appears briefly to accidentally summon Lord Jaraxxus before dying. Kanrethad Ebonlocke serves mostly as a warning by becoming a demon himself. There’s a list of Warlocks on wowpedia (https://wow.gamepedia.com/List_of_warlocks) and outside of Tehd and characters that are companions in WoD and Legion that non-Warlocks never see… I don’t think I even remember interacting with any of these non-hostile folks.
But the hostile ones? Anetheron, Archimode, Cho’gall, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, Grandmaster Vorpil, Gul’dan, Keli’dan the Breaker, Kil’jaeden, Ner’zhul, Prince Malchezaar, Terestian Illhoof, Teron Gorefiend, Teron’gor, and Zuluhed the Whacked.
When Blizzard needs a purple dispenser/loot pinata - guess what class they’re going to represent? Warlocks.
REDEEM THE WARLOCKS!
/entirely kidding
//mostly kidding
///please turn me into a demon hunter so I can keep my main and achievements and rep but not just be a purely evil character
That’s the problem, innit? They’re more than happy to show the Alliance doing shady/awful stuff, they just consistently go out of their way to defend it or shove it under the rug.
It attacks the problem of Meringue claiming, incorrectly, that the Alliance PC is (and I quote again) “constantly treated as if they did just as much wrong” as the Horde PC.
Whether or not Tyrande goes off the deep end, whether or not she pulls back from it, that does not say that the Alliance PC is treated as if he/she is doing the wrong thing. At best you can say it’s an indirect refutation of an attitude that the player may share–though I must point out that we don’t yet know where Tyrande’s arc is ultimately leading–which is a far cry from NPCs telling you to your face in explicit wording that you’re bad and should feel bad.
And there’s also the point that this indirect attack (if that’s what it ends up being) is confined only to the Night Elf portion of BfA’s story. A human, gnome, or whatever isn’t going to experience it the same way.
That’s exactly the problem. The alliance has done plenty of shady crap, but it’s ALWAYS justified shortly afterwards. And the blizz needs to stop having the horde rely on the alliance to tell a story.
The theme you seem to be putting your finger on here is bigotry, and that bigotry having consequences when its applied to your friends. Garithos alienated the Blood Elves because of his hatred, his willingness to use them as cannon fodder, and ultimately his explicit betrayal of them.
Given that the stance against magic is by now framed as being fueled by bigotry, rather than what used to be defensible positions about its use and its dangers, and given further that Tyrande explicitly argued that the Nightborne should be used so less of her own troops would die - I think we’ve checked two out of the three boxes rather explicitly, and have struck the overall tone.
Is that third box required as well? I still feel like we’re not seeing eye to eye on this.
@ Pellex
I see what you’re saying with it seeming indirect. That’s a fair thing to point out. Regarding your last paragraph there … yeah. Wreave over on SOL once described the Night Elves as “being the bumper to the Alliance’s car” - as we take the hits so they are spared them, and it feels like it’s happening morally as well. But of course - I do come at this from that mindset so, take that for what it is.
As a night elf, I went through the entire Suramar questline—not just as a night elf, but as a demon hunter. The Legion was there, my purpose was to kill it; didn’t matter if I was fighting alongside Nightborne, Blood Elves, Orcs, Tauren, etc. etc.
Try comparing that with what Tyrande did with prioritizing her own biases and ongoing racial prejudice against Arcane magic over fighting against the very evil that created those biases in the first place.
Which is pretty hypocritical considering:
A) By the time of Legion, the Kaldorei have accepted Highborne back into their ranks
B) They’ve already fought alongside magi who use the Arcane, like Jaina and the High Elves, at Mount Hyjal, as well as during several other battles.
All of this combines into her as a faction leader alienating what was at the time a neutral faction/potential ally.
I feel like that was more a shot at Anduin personally, given his earlier refusal to aid the Kaldorei, and Tyrande’s subsequent remark that
We’ve lingered too long in this city of men.
Which, honestly, I don’t blame her for—the Boy King had it coming, and frankly, even if they don’t go with a full-on “faction swap,” there really isn’t much reason for the Kaldorei to remain with the Alliance anyway at this point.
I get what you’re saying with it being a shot at Anduin, but again, he’s framed as our dear moral leader who we may not disagree with, ever. The framing tells us that he is right and that Tyrande is consumed by vengeance. Hence why I describe that as a form of lecturing, or at least moral posturing.
Granted, Horde posters might (rightfully) point out that this is inter-alliance moral posturing.