How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

lol dragons suck and are dumb

[Poised-moon-guard]

@Sarm-malganis

What I had in mind about it being a retcon was that, if I remember correctly, Alexstrasza originally wasn’t designed as an intelligent being. So capturing a big dragon to breed more would “just” be really aggressive and cruel animal husbandry. But that’s why I was questioning if I remembered correctly, because Deathwing was supposedly a thinking being even back then.

But if she was formerly just a big animal, and then later changed to be her own person, then the old RTS stuff suddenly becomes really, really ugly unless the developers give an alternate explanation for why the queen of peace and life is suddenly “siding” with the horde. But they just kept it as-is with her being a prisoner.

She was always conceived as sentient, as she was the Dragonqueen in WC2, but was considered an outlier rather than the norm, the dragons weren’t as divided into their various flights before Knaak, they were just… different dragon types, with some exceptional ones being more sentient.

The retcons were the result of Knaak basically lifting his lore directly from his Dragonrealms books, and copy/pasting them into WoW lore. Not that this hasn’t stopped Blizz from going downright grimdark with them even now. Knaak’s Warcraft work is downright hilarious if you know some of his older stuff, he took characterizations and traits directly from his own original series and then just rewrote them, badly, into Warcraft canon.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Ah, my bad then. So it was just nasty from the start.

Not that it stopped Blizzard from continuing it anyway. I remember originally being relieved at the end of Cataclysm when the devs said they were all infertile because my first thought was “oh thank God, no more awful stories about dragon sex.”

[Poised-moon-guard]

Still have all the stories about murdering unhatched eggs for… reasons. Or several instances of dragons being strung up on meathooks, etc.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

Lol I’m sure there were perfectly valid reasons…

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

In general I think parts of stories like that don’t belong in Wow. It’s true to life…I guess. But, it’s just gross and weird to me. If people like the dragons for the characters they are that’s fine, as I mentioned I have friends who love it. But, personally they’re just like not my taste, and that history makes it even more unappealing.

[Ninh-draka (Ninh)]

Honestly I’m not sure anyone would actually have a problem with Horde npc’s doing nice things for Alliance players as long as they themselves aren’t forced into it.

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

I initially picked red team, decided it wasn’t for me, and switched to blue team instead of embarking on a Sisyphean task spanning decades to convince everyone that the screaming barbarian faction I picked should behave less like screaming barbarians.

Feel free to correct me with examples, but do people actually want Horde races to be less ‘Blood and Thunder’? I seriously thought the ‘Red Alliance’ concept was despised by most of the Horde playerbase.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Ninh-draka

Feel free to correct me with examples, but do people actually want Horde races to be less ‘Blood and Thunder’?

I’d say a lot of Horde players would agree with “more original-flavor Thrall, less Garrosh.”

[Ninh-draka (Ninh)]

Which is fairly different from not being ‘Blood and Thunder’, Original Thrall was pretty solidly a warrior even as a shaman.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

Yes, but someone arguing in bad faith might claim it was the same thing.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I’m reminded of that mission during Reign of Chaos where Grom decided to go after a bunch of human encampments and Thrall had to repeatedly bail him out. Thrall initially did not take Grom’s crap, and then sent him off where he thought that he couldn’t be any more of a liability.

That Thrall I think would have whacked the Thrall of Cata, MOP, WoD and today upside the head like… seven times.

[Ninh-draka (Ninh)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I’m reminded of that mission during Reign of Chaos where Grom decided to go after a bunch of human encampments and Thrall had to repeatedly bail him out. Thrall initially did not take Grom’s crap, and then sent him off where he thought that he couldn’t be any more of a liability.

I just looked up that mission, and I must have forgotten this in all the time since but, apparently Grom’s bloodlust in that mission is a direct result of the proximity of Mannoroth
Grom Hellscream: Don’t lecture me, pup! The wretches deserved death! Don’t you feel it, Thrall? It’s like the old days… like the demons are near.

EDIT: So that makes the decision to send him to Ashenvale even more ill-timed.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

In Thrall’s defense, he didn’t know that anything was up there.

Edit: Doesn’t excuse his post Warcraft 3 policies though.

[Avati-sargeras]

This is the true thread. Not that other bozo trying to make the horde the good guys

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

@Pellex-hyjal

In the case of Zekhan, though, the attachment took the form of “Hey, that troll shaman looks really cool!” What you’re looking to generate is “I will ride forth and fight Night Elves to defend that troll shaman,”

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

The way I see it, people have to like the character, and the attack on the character has to be viewed as something outrageous and unsympathetic.

The difference, as I see it, is that part of the attraction of Zekhan was that he didn’t need defending. He was a cool and seemingly powerful ally. If he became the target of a brutal Night Elf attack, it would diminish his perceived coolness and power, which also diminishes the force of that story point by weakening people’s attachment to him through showing it to be unearned.

It would be easier to slot him into the role of questgiver than defense objective, based on people’s response to him.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

Zekhan is a cool character? Oof. What is supposed to be cool about him exactly?

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

From what I can tell, he was basically just a lightning bolt + babyface meme and that’s it. I didn’t really get into him. Felt like people were just desperate for someone new to like.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

I’m not saying people can’t like him, but even ‘cool’ seems a little reaching about this character. To me.
I could understand if people liked his hopeful themes, and motivational attitude. But, he almost seems more clunky then cool.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

My point was more that he’d be more likely to be defended than Generic Troll #756. The same concept could be applied elsewhere.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am NOT the one literally telling people to GTFO of “their” thread because their opinions don´t match the one you want to hear. That´s you and you ALONE. Nor implying THOSE posters are "simply too stubborn / stupid/ both to “grasp” the "magnificence of your suggestion.

Suggestions are just that: opinions or considerations done by ONE person or ONE group of people regarding a product / event. And the “customer” -in this case, us Horde posters- can perfectly reject it and/or accept it WITH OR WITHOUT modifications. And that´s what happened here Kyalin, and what you STILL haven´t understood -that we rejected it WITHOUT modifications or plain rejected it, period-. The most you can do is either take into consideration the modifications some posters suggest or plain takew your suggestion and pith it to some other customer.

Tl;dr: we are NOT obliged to accept your ideas just because you are well… you. And we TOLD you -several times, and not only myself but several posters did- what portions of that scenario didn´t work for us… and your answer? “I personally don´t consider that a good enough reason ergo I´ll ignore it”. And sorry but that constitutes literally the WORST “customer service” I´ve ever met. So if you are NOT HONESTLY interested in working with us, then stop wasting our time, acting rude and hiding behind a courtain of victimhood nobody with an honest bone in his/her body will bought, period.

Also and to finish: to try to disqualify my arguments using ME or Droité or any other poster -as in our presence or the way we told things- is literally NOT arguing, but bullying. And conceding you actually have NO argumentative text to offer. And I´m not interested in wasting my time with someone who is NOT even honest enough to accept he/she must modify stuff and that yes, not everything resolver sound his/her self (cause it´s hilarious you accuse me of “acting selfish” when several posters have accused you about trying to use the topic at hand NOT to make the Horde more bearable for the players but to stroke the ego of the Nelf fans, period.