Alright, you tell me which chunks that is. I thought it was common knowlegde that the Horde had wronged the Alliance more, but i’m open to hearing you out, however sceptical I am. I’ll give you the courtesy you clearly haven’t shown me.
Stop feeding the troll! Just mute him like I did!
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Every way I type this it doesn’t read correctly but I agree with what you are saying. I don’t disagree with you being valid in desiring some sort of return for Tedrassil. I think it will be pretty ridiculous if the narrative doesn’t address that elephant in the room.
Unfortunately - and I mean this as unfortunate to both sides - it’s tough to see a path forward beyond that which makes any sense.
Assuming (and it’s a big assumption) that we could find the proper tone and content that doesn’t utterly ruin the Horde player experience and repairs the damages BfA caused - the problem remains one of where the remainder of this interaction can play out.
We both agree that both factions got dumped on pretty terribly. So heaping more losses on top for either seems pretty awful.
If I were a Horde leader (and at this point I would never want to be because of the short life expectancy) i would basically be in a bunker / isolationist mentality. Literally my only goal would be to make each location sustainable, adding in high walls, maybe digging moats, and just stay away from everyone and everything. Maybe have some of the Nightborne working on finding portals to a new world that is empty of people and could sustain life. Then I’d just having our faction peace out one evening. No warnings - just poof.
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That’s a stereotype.
Putting your trollish baiting aside, your original comment was:
This is a generalization, at best—I’m at least willing to own that both factions are probably at equal scores at this point.
The problem, as pretty much every Horde poster on here has pointed out, is that only Team Red gets called out on this.
But here, have a list:
- Garithos’ illegal imprisonment and sentencing of the blood elves
- The Kirin Tor’s allowance of said illegal imprisonment
- Daelin Proudmoore’s coastal invasion of Kalimdor, including the complete deforestation of Durotar
- Camp Taurajo, obviously
- The Alliance invasion of the Undercity
- Varian Wrynn, not Garrosh, re-starting the faction war in this context
- The Purge of Dalaran
- Jaina Proudmoore’s attempt to flood Orgrimmar and murder Thrall
- Genn Greymane’s unauthorized assassination attempt of Sylvanas Windrunner
- Calia Menethil causing the deaths of many Forsaken in an attempted coup
- The Alliance opening hostilities on the goblins at Silithus…which then got retconned to portray the Horde as firing the first shot.
- The Battle of Dazar’alor, including the looting of the royal treasury (war crime), and the assassination of King Rastakhan
- Turalyon and Alleria torturing civilians
Please don’t try and act as if the Alliance has done little to nothing against the Horde.
You’re just as guilty as we are.
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Never sanctioned by the Alliance. in fact, it was condemned. And I might also add you got revenge by killing him an all his men.
Independant, and he paid for it by his death and that of his death.
You mean the one where they teamed up with the Horde and fought putress and demons? Are you seriously listing this?
Come on. That was on Sylvanas, 99% of it. I’ll give you the 1% however.
I never have. But nothing on this list even compares to teldrassil, Not one. Jaina’s attempt perhaps, had it succeded. But the rest? Not even close in terms of lives lost, in terms of territory lost, or in terms of impact. And I have only mentioned a few of the most egregious. I didn’t mention the Forsaken concentration camps, or the attack at icecrown.
So no. if this is all you can bring, then the divide iis about as wide as I thought. The Horde still has a lot more to make up for than vice versa.
And that’s unfortunate. That’s just how the story went. But it is what it is.
Goodbye. I think we’ve both said our piece.
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I just want to say I got a laugh out of this. He does nothing but insult you and than wants to pretend he’s being courteous with you. But do continue, this is really enlightening on how he thinks things should be
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I understand the event not being in game anymore makes memories hazy, but there is an article on gamepedia about it.
The two forces were not working together, Varian even intended to reclaim Lordaeron for the Alliance with the attack.
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And than Jaina was forced to teleport him and his men out because Varian decided that was a good time to go full Man Child and nearly start another war.
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He was the Alliance leader at the time, so this is just wrong.
I might add this is also BS.
Kael’thas and the blood elves literally had to flee to an alien planet. Sylvanas killed Garithos by way of Varimathras.
Your ignorance of this fact alone is pretty telling re: your lack of knowledge on the rest of the lore.
Great, so then Sylvanas is singularly responsible for her crimes, since she acted independently of the Horde at large.
Oh wait, the whole “individualist” argument only works for Blue Team, doesn’t it? 
“Teamed up” 
Do I seriously need to remind you of how Varian literally stormed into the Royal Quarter, screaming about “greenskins” and “what the world could be like without the Horde”?
“Teamed up”…
And you wonder why you haven’t earned my respect.
Anduin himself admits this was on Calia in the novel. You’re wrong again.
Ah, brush it all aside and play “what about…?” when you have nothing to say. Classic Alliance troll tactic.
You’re becoming pathetically predictable at this point.
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Eh, I wouldn’t hold it too much against him, he did just go into the center of the RAS work area. Forsaken have always been up to stuff better off not shown to allies and enemies alike.
For reference, this is what “teaming up” looks like to Morghel.
I give you: Varian Wrynn’s speech during the Battle for the Undercity, Wrath of the Lich King:
I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free – unchecked.
The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
I’ve waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas… for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you… I could only think of one thing.
What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde…It ends now, Warchief.
ATTACK! FOR STORMWIND! FOR BOLVAR! FOR THE ALLIANCE!
Make of that what you will.
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Is it weird that I wish Blizzard was just upfront about that as a character trait/motivation. I’d honestly like her more then just being ‘Generic Priest Archetype’ like most of her dialogue currently seems.
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Cut off from everyone else because of the events happening, he happened to be the highest in rank. Not a soul gave him command or ordered him, since there was no one left to order him around. So no, it was never sanctioned by the Alliance.
You thinking Garithos was getting orders from the Alliance shows your ignorance.
Might I also add he was part of Lordaeron, not Stormwind or anyone else within the current Alliance? If anything, that squable was a civil war.
Then why did they support her? They did, after all. The Alliance, however, never supported Daelin. Again, quite the difference.
No. One follows monsters. The other doesn’t. I thought you knew at this point, but i’ll be glad to remind you, as many times as it takes.
No, it’s just sad that you can’t see the difference. Perhaps one day you will. But I don’t have much hope.
It definitely makes her more “human” and less of a flawless concept like most Alliance characters (especially Light Wielders), so no … I do agree its a better character trait and motivation. It is also an element of her characterization that can actually be worked off of and worked with to give her a decent arc.
And look, I do think there is a way to make Calia work with the right development for her. Operating off the Dual Identity nature of the Forsaken slightly highlighted and explored in BtS. Plus the massive spectrum in between. However, to make the best of her, you need a counterbalance (preferably a leader of equal influence) to serve as the other half of that dual identity. As Calia only really represents the “Citizens of Lordaeron” part. There has to be someone built up as her contemporary who positively represents the “Forsaken” part. My ideal situation where we need a Calia in a leadership position (beyond her own necessary growth) is one where there are those two co-operative leaders. And Voss “could” be made into that counterbalance with the right effort. To support that entire spectrum of identity.
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Wait, I’m confused by this bit. Why would anyone need to be there to give him command if he was the highest rank left? At that point, he effectively is the alliance, or at least of what’s left of it. Wouldn’t he answer to nobody?
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Exactly; Garithos was the Alliance at that point.
And again, it’s also been established that the Council of Six—minus Antonidas—survived Arthas’ attack on Dalaran.
And then proceeded to stand by and watch as Garithos locked Kael’thas and the blood elves away in the Violet Hold like criminals.
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Yes, but that’s the thing. He didn’t recieve orders from anyone in the Alliance, whether they were of Lordaeron or Stormwind or whatever. He was his own commander at that point. And to add, he wasn’t part of Stormwind, but of Lordaeron. Blaming the current Alliance for what he did, is akin to blaming the current Horde for what Gul’dan did.
It would be…if not for the Purge of Dalaran.
Consider for a moment that that literally makes Jaina the Garithos figure in that scenario.
Well, to be fair, Saurfang did. 
… 
**Lordaeron’s ** part of the Alliance, which died with him.
Two completely different events, by different actors, for different reasons. The only thing binding them, is that in both cases Blood elves were targeted.
In the sense that both targeted blood elves. Of course, their motivations were as different as day and night. Garithos had his prejudice, while Jaine was fueled by anger due to Aethas stabbing her in the back.
Didn’t he talk about Blackhand? I don’t think he talked about Gul’dan.
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