Incorrect. Every single Horde character there except Calia is guilty. Them feeling a tinge of regret will not wash away the ocean of blood that is on their hands. It will take a lot more than regret for them to atone.
Right, but no writer in existance would be able to paint the Alliance as unsympathetic for going to war against the Horde again. Not convincingly, and never with bfa in the rear mirror. Because the ammount of anger, hatred and sorrow that the Alliance would feel would be completely understandable and justified. They would be victims who have had enough, and are now returning fire. Itâs hard to feel angry at that.
Right, Iâm sure you believe that because you frequent this board.
Iâm sure they could make a scene where the Alliance bust into Orgrimmar and start slaughtering men, women, and children in the streets, from the perspective of an orc civilian. Have a scene where heâs huddled up in the orphanage when a Alliance whatever sees kids and just burns the whole building down, weâd have people here clapping and saying âthis is justified those kids just need to lie down and accept the burningâ.
I would not. But I would focus on the people doing the slaughtering. Their pain, their hatred, and their sorrow. All of it a result of the Hordeâs actions. I would feel bad about the children, but not an ounce for the adults, or for the buildings. And I highly doubt many Alliance would do either. Because it would simply be the Horde experiencing what they themselves did against us.
Thatâs just a long, prettier way of saying âThose kids need to lay down and accept the burningâ.
âIâm morally superior because I was a victim, so let me victimize them back because I am superior.â
A staple of the Story Forums. To use Blizzards own terms, a Cycle of Hatred never ending. (And Iâm referring to out of game meta. In game people donât exist and can easily swap on a dime whenever they want)
Superior? No. But victims get a lot more sympathy from me than perpetrators. Or those who benefit from perpetrators.
Let me give you an example. Imagine a holocaust survivor, fresh from the camps, makes his way to a german city to enact vengeance. He knows the people there, aside from children and a few others, are all guilty, ranging from perpetrating evil to supporting evil. He decides to set fire to the whole town, and does so. In the process, he kills many people who were guilty, but in the process he also kills several who had nothing to do with it, including children.
Would he be right? No, of course not. But you still feel sympathy for him, because of what he went through, and why he did what he did. And the only thing you regret is that innocents were hurt, not that the rest got what they deserved.
That is what the Alliance lashing out against the Horde would be like. A bit of morally grey, which so many Horde posters want for the Alliance, while we get to went our frustrations.
For the rest of the Horde back then, yeah pretty much.
The redemption arch for the Orcs happened during WC 3. We know the story and it was way better than anything in WoW (so far).
The writers have do decide for a path. Their way of story telling, villain bating the Horde and to push them in to extreme different directions with more Garrosh 2.'s is simply not working.
Thatâs not morally grey. Thatâs a Godwinâs Law flavored âListen man, he got those bad guys, yeah some innocents got burned up but hey they just gotta accept they that.â
Cause do you expect those innocents to just live and let live because the perpetrator was a victim too? Or will they just, continue that endless cycle as well.
That is the issue I take here. Itâs constantly being locked in a cycle of crap throwing and then feeling morally justified in doing so. Alliance burn down Orgrimmar and feel morally justified in doing so âThey did it to us!â
Horde burns down Ironforge in revenge for Orgrimmar. How do you burn down a mountain? Who cares âThey burned Orgrimmar! They did it to us!â
Sure, because then it would be an actual cycle. Not just the Horde beating the Alliance up, and the Alliance turning the other cheek.
You misunderstand me then. The people doing the slaughtering would not care about morality at that point. They would be driven by vegeance, heedless if it was right or wrong. I would feel sympathy for them, but I would not feel like it was the right thing, if innocents were killed.
Why should the Alliance end the circle of hatred? Just because the Horde lives in poor lands? Or to reaffirm a boring morality?
The night elves will melt Orgrimmarâs chimeras with acid breath. And the Horde will overcome it. Or rejoice, because itâs time for battle again! Battle!
What if the Horde breaks the circle and endures the ongoing Alliance attacks through clenched teeth? Will this make her âbetterâ or at least post-pivot to the role of âvictimâ?
Literally a couple of additions, accompanied by the loss of land and population, full of moral stupidity, but with the preservation of the characters, and for the third third time you will take revenge. Probably. Maybe the book will show the victory of the Horde. Moral as ever and condemning the Alliance.
This will allow the Alliance to be âcompetently evilâ. And the Horde ⊠Yes, the moral problem will be solved only in the third expansion, the other two you will live with the hope that later you will be able to condemn the Alliance and not receive âFor Teldrassil!â After all, morality is so pleasant, even at the cost of regular incompetence and pain.
oh you mean like they did idk how many time with idk how many other races during the lore of wow ? oh wait only now does it matter because its the night elf snowflakes who suffered from it
I know Iâm only throwing more fuel on the fire here but it needs to be pointed out that the Hordeâs immorality is front and centre to players. Itâs quests, itâs cut scenes, itâs cinematics for the entire player base to see.
Any immorality the Alliance may have is mainly within novels & comics that only a fraction of the player base gets to see.
Most people just want to play the game and have no interest in the extras outside of it, therefore itâs understandable for many to see one faction as Autobots and the other as Decepticons.
Youâre legitimately conflating in-game and out-of-game. Youâre suggesting the only way to redeem the Horde is by following your process - which is in essence forcing the Horde to shoulder the burden of working for and/or with the Alliance to serve the goals/purposes of the Alliance. That places the needs of the Horde secondary to the needs of the Alliance.
Did we play the same game? The Alliance invaded Orgrimmar and the Horde faction splintered to aid them in the Siege. The Alliance and the splintered Horde faction worked together to remove the evil that is Sylvanas and perpetually was reminded of the evil that was Teldrassil to the point that Horde players played as Alliance characters to invade the Zandalari capital in a siege that led to the death of their leader.
You claim that the Alliance should maintain their moral high ground and that their standing plays no role in how the Horde narrative is played out. If the Alliance is constantly âin the rightâ then the Horde is left being âmore wrongâ than the Alliance any time there is a disagreement, which leads back to your initial point - that the Horde then has to seek contrition and reparation for their âwrongnessâ to move forward. Unless there is a change in the way the Alliance is portrayed youâve created a cycle that is doomed to repeat itself.
You can believe that morality is viewed in a vacuum - fine, I disagree and we could have a longer debate, but in essence that makes Jaina into a monster for trying to drown Orgrimmar - but if you claim that being âwrongâ leads to needing to fix your mistakes, then when there are two positions being taken and one is always âmore rightâ then the other is always âmore wrongâ which, in your stated view, requires contrition/reparations for the wrong.
My point isnât that the Alliance needs to simply move down to committing genocide. Iâve never said that. Iâve said that the Horde needs to be improved within the narrative, but unless the Alliance is no longer âalways rightâ then the Horde will always be forced into a cycle of atonement to make up for being âless right.â
As Kyalin pointed out, this thread hasnât been as much about whether we trust the (current or future) writers to follow these actions. Weâre working more on hypothetically what they would need to do to change the way theyâve been handling this situation. Truthfully, from the way theyâve been handling things, I believe they like the status quo. Iâm not saying they will change the next Horde leader into a villain as well, but they likely will continue down the path that portrays the Horde as savages who need to be reminded constantly of what it is to be âgoodâ by the Alliance.
Since you are so vehemently against this, what would you have instead, in the wake of bfa? What would you have the Horde do to atone for their actions? Or what would you have the Alliance do to make a bit more morally grey? Have the Alliance go on a vengeful rampage against the Horde, and try to portray that as unjustified? Good luck. Iâm simply extremely unconvinced that what you want can be achieved in the way you want it to be achieved.
All you manage to create then are vengeful victims lashing out against their abusers. Perhaps a bit grey, but nowhere near as black as the Horde. If you want some kind of parity that wonât be enough.
Sigh ⊠I like how I asked for a single âGreyâ act from the Alliance since Cata that you claim exists that wasnât buried under a mountain of justifications or handwaved away ⊠and you could not think of one. Which just goes to show that at least in your case you REVEL in the inhumanly flawless nature of the Alliance; and their moral absolutism. And just like every time this âwriting flawâ is brought up, there are a bunch of Alliance players whoâs first instinct to is to do away with it. Because the âAlliance canât have flawsâ, even their own flawlessness. Which is why responses to the contrary are always vague âthe Alliance isnât flawlessâ.
And while no one is saying that the Horde doesnât need to improve, this artificially pristine shine that Blizzard maintains for the Alliance does effect the Horde negatively. Because, like with BfA, when Blizz gets board and wants to settup the Faction Conflict again (and they will likely again) ⊠its going to be the Horde thatâs the baddie again. It doesnât matter how many motives or justifications the Alliance has to be the aggressors. It doesnât matter how broken and weak the Hordeâs Faction Identity, Racial Fantasies, or Character Roster are. It doesnât even matter how weak the Horde itself is. None of that matters. Because the Alliance is completely off limits to tarnish, its gotta be the Horde that starts it.
And, as weâve seen since Cata, Blizz cares less and less about giving reasons for that Horde antagonism; let alone validating them. Because to have valid reasons would require that the Alliance do something antagonistic. And because the Alliance are kept these âFlawless Paragons of every virtue ever conceived by manâ ⊠they canât even do that. Because being âantagonisticâ isnât a virtue. Thatâs a no-no. Theyâre pure!