Remember when all those Nelf players got up in arms in 8.2 over getting a mediocre representation in BfA in regards to the big impact Teldrassil had on their narrative? I wonder If they complained as much back in WotLK when the Forsaken NOT ONLY got their narrative Reason d´Etre (A.K.A. revenge on Arthas) hijacked to put a Male Human Paladin character in charge of leading it -essentially leaving them purposeless- but got villain batted too as a “reward” for their efforts.
I think this is why I detest so much the whole Calia fiasco… because it´s not the first but the actual SECOND time Blizzard writers literally crap onto the Forsaken fans to push for Alliance flavored / Alliance friendly narratives either ignoring / punishing the Forsaken or using them as an unwilling forced vehicle to achieve it.
“Baine is the best part of the Horde”. “Baine is the Heart of the Horde”. Literally the first thing we see in the next explanation. “The Best of the Horde and Heart of the Horde is so worthless to his own kidnappers they threw him in the trash”. And on a more meta-level, the “Best and Heart of the Horde” is a character who’s own characterization needs are thrown aside for his need to be a convenient plot-device for the story. Well, I mean … with Sylvies’ “The Horde is Nothing” … Baine does actually represent what the Horde is I suppose.
“A worthless plot device who’s own characterization needs are always thrown aside for our need to be a convenient plot device for the story. We are nothing”. I mean, in a way Blizz has been very honest about what they truly think of our little Red Faction. And this is coming from someone who doesn’t hate Baine.
Indeed. Reason why the actual healthy -imho- narrative path to follow should be the actual DIVORCE (and “bad terms divorce” in which the parties hate so much on each other they literally “dissapear from the face of the Earth” for the other party involved) of both Horde and Alliance narratives.
In my perfect world Horde gets it´s own stories and Alliance gets it´s own stories ABSOLUTELY INDEPENDENT from each other (we don´t see any Alliance / formerly Alliance / Alliance flavored character ever again and likewise, Alliance is safe from "Horde BS pulled beating to represent the “poor wittle victims too good to retaliate” for the n-esim time).
I respect that perspective to a point. I like to try to make it myself, but I’ve found that whenever I propose a fix for the Night Elves, I am accused of not considering the Horde’s point of view. That’s why I’m here and asking these questions, because the solutions to the game’s issues cannot be completed by those who only consider their own perspective.
@ Skarm
GRAND MARSHALL BUDD would instantly endear massive amounts of new investiture in the the Alliance story regardless of what actions he took while in the role.
It depends on the solution and the narrative path the writer choose to follow. If the choice is to keep the interaction between the factions then indeed it´s necessary to get AND appreciate both sides of the story A.K.A. both factions; on the other hand if -like me- the writer simply decides it´s worthless to continue deploying stories that involve both factions (keep in mind most people praised the individual and UNRELATED levelling storylines in BfA precisely because they were untainted and free from the terribadly written faction conflict BS) then what the writer needs is to focus in how to depict the positive aspects of each faction and translate this into the game for each particular faction players regardless of the story being developed for the other faction.
oh, and why do I feel working on “shared” narratives between Horde and Alliance is worthless? Easy, because when I got to experience them in BfA I literally felt like the “protagonist” of this video:
h^ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnrrLxQEVQ
(mind you, I don´t think this applies to Horde players only but to Alliance players too… to players that cared for the lore in general).
That is my ideal as well. There are some zones I’d actually fight for the Horde to have (Hinterlands in EK, Stonetalon in Kali, for example), but generally I don’t even want to see the Alliance for quite a while.
I want to follow Gazlowe as he pulls some Corporate Takeovers on the remaining Kali Steamwheedle operations. Helping Mida building a Grimrail from BHarbor to Gadget.
I want to see Rokhan drag Zekhan down to the Farraki, and those two can bring them into the Horde after their fallout with Mueh’zala.
I want Talanji to help ease tensions with the Forest Trolls, and help them secure a place for themselves within EK and the Horde. The Hinterlands and the Former Scarlet Enclave would do wonders.
I want to see the Frostwolves not only assert full authority over Alterac (and help them do it), but finally open up to their Horde EK neighbors.
I want to help the Forsaken claim Strat as their new capital and help them rebuild not just UC, but Lordaeron as a whole. I also just want them, the BEs, and the FTs to fully claim the Plaguelands.
I want the MU Orcs to evacuate what remains of their people from the dying world of Outlands … and turn Southern Kali into a new Nagrand. With its own Throne of the Elements.
I would actually quite enjoy following Baine and Jevan Grimtotem to reunify with the scattered Grimtotem tribes. Get some good characterization for Baine, Jevan, and the Tauren from that.
And so on, and so on, and so on. I don’t care about the Alliance. Let them do their thing for a while, and I want to do mine. God we need an Anti-Cata expansion to get us out of eachothers hair for a while; and rebuild and reconnect with our Factions/Races.
This has already happened in game. We got an entire year, from patch 8.2.5 to patch 9.0, of Orgrimmar NPCs talking about rounding up Banshee loyalists, hunting down Sylvanas and any loyal to her, complete with prisoners being driven through the streets in chains. Goblin NPCs discussing a rumor about Gallywix destroying documents before he left, hoping to hide the depths of his involvement. NPCs talking about divisions within their own families between those who were loyal to Sylvanas and those who weren’t, and their doubts about whether they could reconcile. Liadrin regularly patrolled around the city with a company of Blood Knights, saying this at the start when they arrived through the Silvermoon portal:
We also had this quote from Lor’themar after the end of the war campaign:
Additionally, in Shadows Rising one of the significant events that spurs the Horde Council into action is when they receive intelligence on the possible location of some Dark Rangers loyal to Sylvanas…because they want to capture or kill them. As the lore currently stands, the Horde is not forgiving of loyalists who refuse to renounce Sylvanas.
As for Teldrassil, not a single member of the Horde Council was present to take part in that atrocity, as none of them were involved in the War of Thorns. Their biggest crime was not immediately overthrowing her in 8.0 or 8.1, and that’s really a matter of the pacing of the game patches. If Blizzard holds to their timing from the previous expansions, BfA only took up a year or so of time, so the time difference from 8.0 to 8.2.5 is only a matter of months as far as the story is concerned.
Oh absolutely, but the Worgen at least didn´t get villain batted while they got deemed worthless.
That´s it, while Worgen were “qualified” as worthless, Forsaken were qualified as plain “unsustainable - let´s erase them from the narrative the first chance we get pl0x”.
Worgen still can become worthy and important actors in the Alliance narrative; the “curse” still can be written as a positive. In comparison former Forsaken and their narrative ARE getting systematically erased right now to push a “Humans with a skin condition” agenda in place. New mommy figurehead and all.
I love all of this… also maybe finally backtrack on the “neutral Dalaran” BS and let the Belf and Nightborne claim their rightful place as arcane authorities for the Horde that can be depicted just as competent and dangerous as the Kirin Tor, please?
This is wrong on several levels. The most important is that the Alliance good or bad does not remove the chance for the Horde to show their morality. In fact we have discussed opportunities for them to show it. They aren’t, made more stark by the fact that Thrall (innocent of the WoT) is.
Fundamentally not true. You may be sharing some of the common notion that pro-peace is pro-Alliance. It is fundamentally not true, but that is how many act.
It isn’t though. There are issues and things wrong. It is just not enough for you to really use the ‘what about-ism’ to excuse the Horde.
Genocide, warmongering.
And according to posters here that kind of past would it so that it would never be able to be as good as the Alliance. And the world was not balanced.
They will never have equal sins. And if Blizzard was doing a let’s make them all equal the story telling would be worse for it. One faction will have more sins. But that doesn’t prevent the Horde from being better going forward. It doesn’t prevent the Horde from redeeming itself.
Its not. The dev story telling actually paint the Alliance wrong in lots of things. And they go to great lengths to say both sides are wrong.
Want a good example. Visit Khadgar. Especially in WoD, where he was more harsh to the Alliance PC because of the war than the Horde one that was part of the aggressive faction. Or how about Taren Zhu who makes. In fact all of Pandaria paints the Alliance as just as bad as the Horde, despite the clear difference in aggression. From WoW writers point of view, the Alliance is bad for fighting the Horde at all.
And there are legit bad things the Alliance has done. Just not as much as you want.
Morality is not relative. That is just a way to try and excuse bad behavior. ‘If someone else is bad, it is okay for me to be bad.’
If they are not fighting, why is that even a consideration?
Or you know the Horde could start being shown to be clean. They could write the Horde as showing honor. They could show the Horde doing the right things. The whole ‘I need you in the muck so I can justify being in the muck’ is bad. Why not have the Horde get out of the muck? Personally, from a Horde perspective I would say it would be more motivating to play with a faction showing honor than a dishonorable one bordering another dishonorable one. Maybe that is just me though.
No, I believe the Horde should be showing actions that do the following:
Show contrition for their wrong
Seek to rectify those wrongs.
Seek to fix the things that led to those wrongs.
That would show a turning around, a change. Redemption is really only a thing if there is a turning around, repentance.
Currently the only Horde showing any of that is Thrall, and he was not even a part of the WoT. Even right before you enter the Maw the Horde leaders take an aggressive stance with the Alliance. I want to see the Horde showing at least the same concern that someone innocent of it is showing.
Well, they did it as a faction.
I don’t think you understand what it means to change. We are not talking about a sentence or penance. We are talking about a change of character. One that tries to do the right thing. That is not an X number of years. That means setting a new course and staying on it. Otherwise it is not really a change. It is just a temporary act.
I think this is your problem. Subservience is not what I am talking about. Nobody is suggesting the Horde should be answer to the Alliance. But they should, of their own choice (not forced) be seeking to correct the past wrongs. Subservience only happens when those actions are forced on someone. When they choose to try and correct a past wrong that is by definition their choice. And when people make that choice it shows character. And it is making that choice that can redeem them.
Except the writing doesn’t do that. The Alliance is constantly treated as though they did just as much wrong. The whole war Garrosh started led to Alliance PCs getting lectured constantly. They war Sylvanas started got the same thing.
That is your twisted read on it. That is absolutely not what is suggested. If fact, I have said repeatedly that the Alliance goodness or badness has NO EFFECT on the Horde’s goodness or badness. The Horde’s redemption lies in them doing the honorable thing, not begging for forgiveness.
This.
Let’s talk about how to get the Horde out of it, not how to get someone else in.
“Let’s talk about how to get JFK to finish the last year of his presidential term, not how well LBJ will do in his sted.”
The Horde CANNOT be redeemed at this point. It is too late, the failure is too complete. ANYTHING less than all of BFA being retconned away in-game cannot undo this terminal damage. And even then, the players will all remember it did, even if the WoW story no longer acknowledges it to have occurred, so the psychological stain will remain.
I will say to the psychological stain - you need something to overwrite it. You will not get a 100% solution to the problem. Neither will your friends on the other side, I’ll add, but that shouldn’t stop us from looking for something that will get the situation to improve.
You literally just described the entire Saurfang story in BfA.
No one standing with the Horde at the top of Icecrown had any part in the War of Thorns aside from the Horde player character. You claim that no one aside from Thrall has expressed any contrition, but that is simply not true. Lor’themar blames himself over not confronting Sylvanas over her increasingly concerning activities before Teldrassil, and he’s the only one out of the Council that would have been in any good position to do so, due to his personal history with her. The rest of the Horde leadership aside from Gey’arah and Gallywix started rumbling against Sylvanas by 8.1 after she arrested Baine and had Zelling executed, and Gey’arah admitted she was wrong to blindly give her loyalty to Sylvanas after the end of the war campaign. Lilian Voss regrets her part in the war campaign and has apologized to Derek for her involvement in his fate. Several members of the Horde Council didn’t even join the Horde until after the War of Thorns, and the Vulpera didn’t even join until after Sylvanas left! The only Horde characters of significance who participated in the War of Thorns were Sylvanas, Nathanos, and Saurfang. If Thrall not being involved in the War of Thorns means he shouldn’t be the one making apologies for it, then I’m afraid there isn’t anyone of influence left in the Horde who can.
I repeat, and why is that “morality” being qualified in comparison to the Alliance´s one or even a modern human irl one?
Mongols conquered, destroyed and killed and I bet you they never considered their actions themselves “bad” nor “amoral”. And that´s the point. If the factions have individual moral codes totally independent from each other then why should that Horde be “punished” by acting “different” from some random standard not even appliable in the story or a standard born out of Alliance PoV?
Sure dear, that´s why warmongering acts done by Alliance aren´t ignored or even used to justify villain batting of major Horde characters (coughcoughStormheimcough) amrite?
Tell that to the Blizz writer that literally villain batted an Orc mother so the Alliance cinammon roll characters could justify their torture imposed on her.
Why should the Horde redeem itself to the Alliance in the first place if by design and deffinition their moral compass are different?
Morality IS absolutely relative to the culture employing it… to the point things that are “morally acceptable” in some countries are basically taboo in others.
It was needed a massive and deathly war involving several European countries so a “globalized” moral background was created… and this only happened in the XX century of the A.C. era. Before that? Lots of stuff were “fair game” depending on the place you lived and how you were born, period.
You´re talking about making the Horde a functional clone of the Alliance with different cosmetic options then?
Cause excuse me, but that is actually detrimental to the Horde as a distinct prouct itself. People that like the Horde like it not based upon how similar it is to the Alliance but the actual opposite.
Says the poster mentioning the game has to show the Horde -as a faction- showing contrition regarding their behaviour towards the Alliance, seeking to rectify those “bad behaviours” done against the Alliance and ultimately seeking to fix what caused these “wrong behaviours” so the Alliance can rest assured Horde will never misbehave again against them.
This is my feelings on the subject. And bare in mind that despite my orc avatar, I do not consider myself a ‘Horde Player’. I play both sides, always have. I don’t recall when or when I started ‘speaking’ via Skarm. At best, I’ll admit a preference for the original Horde narrative simply because it WASN’T the Standard Medieval Fantasy that the Alliance narrative was.
This is my, thesis, I guess:
The mere fact that BFA occurred as written is itself the proof that the Horde is unworthy and incapable of redemption.
After Kil’Jaeden and Gul’Dan.
After Ner’Zhul, Gorefiend and Deathwing
After Grom willingly double-dipped the demon blood.
After the Forsakens’ action creating and using the Blight, and the Wrathgate that came directly from that.
After Garrosh and Sylvannas invaded Alliance territory, wiping away whole populations for the crime of ‘Not Being Horde’.
After the destruction of Theramore, Garrosh backstabbing Vol’jin, and the Siege of Orgimmar.
BFA is proof that the Horde CANNOT, WILL NOT, EVER learn from its mistakes, will NEVER actually overcome its lust for violence.
More specifically, it’s not the Burning of Teldrassil itself that proves it, it’s what came after. That was the act of a psychopath tricking idiots. But fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice/thrice/quad/quint… shame on ME. Sylvannas was still allowed to lead. No one really stood up to her. THAT was when the Horde REALLY became ‘Nothing’. It showed it’s Moral Laziness, it’s Moral Cowardice. Saurfang should have challenged her on the spot, even if he had no chance of winning. Baine should have done the same, and Rokhan, and Gamon, and Etrigg, and Cromash, and… everyone else really. Force Sylvannas to kill them all, in the middle of Orgrimmar, in front of the entire Horde and die for the Honor they talk so much about and walk so little. Expose her for what she truly is, what she truly wants, then and there- a maniac trying to exterminate all life, and only needing them to help her until she needs them dead too.
The writers destroyed all this, and they did it for, what? Shock value? To prove that they could do one of the less-liked stories in WoW history, the faction war from MoP, better? …they made the guys who bungled the last season of GoT look like creative geniuses.
Am I supposed to trust them to fix it? Am I supposed to have faith that it even can be fixed?
Suggesting changes isn’t about trust. Some of those changes may include firing people. Suggesting changes is about recognizing that these people screwed things up in a big way, and that regardless of the scale of the problem, somehow it needs to be fixed.
Otherwise, I guess we can just watch the franchise dissolve, but even given my unique position, I’m not going to take to that kind of cynicism - and believe me when I say that I have some idea of what said cynicism feels like.
Very well said, Skarm. I could feel your passion for the story reading that. You made me think about it and I would have to change my view and agree that the Horde can’t be redeemed. This part in particular made me think of Cairne:
That is the point the Horde became complacent. They were either on-board or apathetic to what was being done. That isn’t the response of noble or honorable people. Baine’s own father was a stark contrast. As soon as he felt the Horde was being lead wrong he stood up for it and put his life directly on the line. He didn’t defect or silently plot, it was all or nothing to him.
Agreed, at this point anything less than the deliberate targeting of Horde children probably counts as ‘justified’; and since I can’t even think of any Alliance warhawks who would tolerate their troops committing such a vile act any soldiers who DID cross that line would at the very least be kicked out of the army- meaning that it not really have been the Alliance who ordered it, but renegades going against accepted military actions.
After reading down this thread, honestly Liuv is right.
There doesn’t actually seem to be a concern about bringing the Horde back up to what it was supposed to be, but more concern with bringing the Alliance down to join it in the filth.
Cause then you will end up with the exact same issue as before; unless the Alliance does something so bad they will still be seen as the paragons of morality while the Horde continues to be the evil savages.
Bonus points when Droite explicitly mentions not expecting to get genocided by the Alliance. Cause let’s be honest here. Unless that happens nothing is going to change with this perception. It’ll just move the goalposts again so it becomes “ok the Alliance has a little dirt but they are still morally superior to the Horde! /Sadface”.
Not really because once war ends and peace is signed anyone who just decides “nuts to that, let’s start a world war!” are usually portrayed as being in the wrong.
This board doesn’t think so because they’ll gladly cut off their own leg in exchange of giving someone else a paper cut if that person wronged them half a decade ago.
