How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

No it’s just your definition of consequences is insane.

What do you think the word consequence means?

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord

What do you think the word consequence means?

Consquences: a result or effect, typically one that is unwelcome or unpleasant.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

That was my first position, that they have no proper Alliance imposed consequences.

But would that still really be just consequence, or retribution and thus winner’s justice?

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

That was my first position, that they have no proper Alliance imposed consequences.

But would that still really be just consequence, or retribution and thus winner’s justice?

To impose either of these things (either consequences or winner’s justice) the Alliance would have actually had to win the War. Which they did not. It seems the canon outcome to the 4th war was the Horde simply did enough to place the majority of the Alliance Leaders and Races in a position where trying to destroy us would not be worth the costs of the attempt. Thus, like it or not, any reparations’ and changes the Horde has made in response to the 4th war are voluntary, and not Alliance imposed. Because they simply cannot.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

I think we all have seen Ikaar’s arguments and post history over the past year or so sufficiently to know his arguments are either unironic extremism or trolling.

[Ireyic-moon-guard (Ireyic)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

It seems the canon outcome to the 4th war was the Horde simply did enough to place the majority of the Alliance Leaders and Races in a position where trying to destroy us would not be worth the costs of the attempt.

Which does not make nearly as much sense, what with this being the 2nd time the Horde kicked off a major war. First time around, it ended on a “Do better.” From the Azure Chin, but this is the 2nd time, Alliance should rightfully feel that by now the chance for them to act up again is a given, so wiping them out is the only way to prevent even more deaths in the future.

Mind you, I take no joy from having to say that. WoW for sure has painted me very skeptical of a faction war narrative, and makes me question if a multi faction game can really exist and be well written. If it is done in the background, where the stakes are small it can be interesting. But when its the main focus of the story? Just seems like a recipe for disaster.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Ireyic-moon-guard

First time around, it ended on a “Do better.” From the Azure Chin, but this is the 2nd time, Alliance should rightfully feel that by now the chance for them to act up again is a given, so wiping them out is the only way to prevent even more deaths in the future.

I more sort of meant its framed that the Alliance by the end of the 4th war did not find themselves in a sufficient enough position of power to even attempt to wipe out the Horde, without suffering catastrophic costs. You can argue whether that makes sense or not, but that is at least the framing a lot of the less idealistic Alliance leaders gave off. Its a very “Yeah, we know we should, but we’re not sure we can afford that bill right now. It might bankrupt us to even attempt it”.

Regardless … gotta love “Horde Expansions”. Sigh … nothing quite like us being used as a plot-device to settup a future villain and expansion without any consideration for the consequences; while Blizz repeatedly lies to our faces that this is for the benefit of the “Horde finding itself”. Seems to me the outcome of the “Horde Finding Itself” is thematically that the only way we can prove we aren’t evil by birth is by being as convenient and submissive for the Alliance, their characters, and their stories as possible.

Which … hey, does back up their “Horde is Nothing” that they have yet to disprove. Or our supposed “Best and Heart of the Horde” Baine being rendered little more than a Token Good Horde Plot-Device who’s own character needs are always shuffled aside for the stories needs of him. Who was discarded as “Worthless Garbage” two patches later by his own kidnappers. I guess the Horde found itself? A worthless plot device who’s characterization needs are always set aside for the stories need to use us?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

Again, not a consequence

Goalposts ---->

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

Lemme guess, those ‘citizens’ attacked Alliance soldiers right? I know for a fact if you try to argue Alliance soldiers just slaughtered citizens you are dead wrong.

Citizens defending themselves and their home from an invading force.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

Nope

Literally what you said

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

the entire Horde got off scott free

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

That was my first position,

Second as I just showed from your own posts.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

No it’s just your definition of consequences is insane.

No, it’s because you’ll never admit that Horde actually had bad stuff happen to it (read: suffered consequences) during BfA.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

They do

Nope. Alliance isn’t world police no matter how much you want to RP it.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

yeah they kinda do.

No, they really don’t. The Alliance is not the world police.

@Ikaar-dreadmaul

From the Alliance

Yeah, it’s established fact that there were Alliance imposed consequences. You just don’t like them.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

A worthless plot device who’s characterization needs are always set aside for the stories need to use us?

While also teetering between Noble Savage (racist trope) and Noble Among Savages (also racist but less so, diet racism trope), made even worse by the fact the Token Noble Savage is the in-game Native American Metaphor in a feathered headdress, somehow made even worse because he’s literally discarded as trash off a cliff due to how useless he is.

It’s bad meta meaning, bad story writing, and cringe all around

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

somehow made even worse because he’s literally discarded as trash off a cliff due to how useless he is.

Hey, at least they changed his Torghast scenario. Where in the beta he wasn’t even in Torghast. He was so worthless you essentially have to barter him off of Ve’nari lol!

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Thank God for that! Because God forbid either Shaman character is able to use the magic in the Shadowlands of dead people to do some cool thing that makes Jaina look basic.

Because God forbid Blizzard remembers Shamanism is Dead People Stuff + Elements.

But no, everyone has to use the Waystone except Jaina, who just teleports out, because she’s so cool and magical

At least he hadn’t made it to live as a bubbled trinket of Venari.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Noble Among Savages (also racist but less so, diet racism trope)

I’m admittedly ignorant about this sort of thing, and I tried googling but didn’t seem to find anything about “Noble Among Savages” aside from a quote in some book. How is this less racist than the typical Noble Savage depiction? From the wording, the phrase makes me think “one of the good ones” and writing off the majority of a group, instead of romanticizing them all. I would have thought it’d be more racist than the regular Noble Savage version.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Sarm-malganis

How is this less racist than the typical Noble Savage depiction? From the wording, the phrase makes me think “one of the good ones” and writing off the majority of a group, instead of romanticizing them all.

Generally, Noble Savage = “Wow this person is Good despite being a Monster”, Noble Among Savages = “Wow this person is exemplar among their otherwise monstrous people”

The latter allows some small, tiny, Itty bitty nuance the former does not

The latter also encourages a narrative of “IF ONLY THE OTHERS HAD LISTENED TO THE NOBLE VOICE AMONG THEM”

Whereas Noble Savage is generally token Monster among a Virtuous Human Group.

So Valeera is arguably a variation of Noble Savage: blood elf assassin part of the Alliance.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Oh, I think I got the ideas mixed up in my head. I figured Noble Savage was an “innocence in idiocy” angle, but on a civilizational level, whereas Noble Among Savages just writes off everyone even in-universe except for a minority. Patronizing versus straight-up villainizing.

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

So Valeera is arguably a variation of Noble Savage: blood elf assassin part of the Alliance.

The same could even be said of Vereesa, Alleria, and the High/Void Elves:

“Oh, if only the Blood Elves could rejoin the Alliance again like the ‘good elves’ have!”

Um, did you guys forget that racism was literally the reason why the Blood Elves left to begin with…?

The same goes for the Nightborne and “How dare they join the Horde?”, to be honest.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Velskàr-stormrage

The same could even be said of Vereesa, Alleria, and the High/Void Elves:

“Oh, if only the Blood Elves could rejoin the Alliance again like the ‘good elves’ have!”

Also the repeated demonization of Void-users, whether as villains (e.g. Tidesages who use Void are Bad!!™) or faction opponent (e.g. Those Dastardly Forsaken And Orcs And Trolls With Their Nefarious Shadow Magic!™).

But then Alleria is now part of the Alliance and it’s all good? And the Alliance Void users vastly are shown to do things none of the Horde Shadow users are able to do?

Strange! Curious!

“You’re not like the Other Void-users, Alleria! You have CONTROL and use your Void Magic for us! Unlike those monstrous Orcs, Trolls, and Undead!”

[Velskàr-stormrage]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Also the repeated demonization of Void-users, whether as villains (e.g. Tidesages who use Void are Bad!!™) or faction opponent (e.g. Those Dastardly Forsaken And Orcs And Trolls With Their Nefarious Shadow Magic!™).

But then Alleria is now part of the Alliance and it’s all good? And the Alliance Void users vastly are shown to do things none of the Horde Shadow users are able to do?

Strange! Curious!

“You’re not like the Other Void-users, Alleria! You have CONTROL and use your Void Magic for us! Unlike those monstrous Orcs, Trolls, and Undead!”

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical for the Sin’dorei to condemn Void magic after all their people have been through with the Arcane/Fel. I feel like that kind of brushes up against the “story vs. gameplay” paradox, since you can still make a Blood Elf Warlock and/or Shadow Priest, but then canonically, most Blood Elves in lore seem to be either “Rangers” (Hunters), Priests/Blood Knights (Paladins), or Magisters (Mages).

Though also to be fair, the Blood Elves’ condemnation of the Void isn’t solely limited to them either, as you rightly point out. And it does seem a bit odd that the Alliance would accept Void Elves into their ranks during the very same expansion that featured:

• An Old God takeover of Kul Tiras’ Tidesages and Shrine of Storms
• The return of Azshara
• The freeing of N’Zoth

It actually reminds me of Varian’s line at the end of War Crimes:

“But we have warlocks!”

Whoa there. Record-scratch. So, you’re willing to allow known demon worshippers, particularly those using felhounds, to fight alongside the Alliance, but then only when a cult of Dragonmaw and rogue Bronze Dragons show up to liberate the deposed Horde Warchief…?

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Velskàr-stormrage

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical for the Sin’dorei to condemn Void magic after all their people have been through with the Arcane/Fel.

I mean I don’t think Rommath is against Void magic per se, it’s just the material reality that the Sunwell is now 50% Light, and Void and Light do not react well.

Alleria just cha cha sliding near it caused bad stuff after all.

@Velskàr-stormrage

since you can still make a Blood Elf Warlock and/or Shadow Priest, but then canonically, most Blood Elves in lore seem to be either “Rangers” (Hunters), Priests/Blood Knights (Paladins), or Magisters (Mages).

I mean like you said, gameplay class dynamics aren’t “real” within the lore. “Blood Mages” are Mage + Warlock, Magisters are also Mage + Warlock (Drain Mana, etc).

But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume within the Lore, all “warlocks” and “priests” of the Blood Elves are forbidden from using shadow.

@Velskàr-stormrage

It actually reminds me of Varian’s line at the end of War Crimes:

“But we have warlocks!”

Whoa there. Record-scratch. So, you’re willing to allow known demon worshippers, particularly those using felhounds, to fight alongside the Alliance, but then only when a cult of Dragonmaw and rogue Bronze Dragons show up to liberate the deposed Horde Warchief…?

As I said,

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Strange! Curious!

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

@Zahirwrite-farstriders

My first statement was that the old guard of the Horde were largely war criminals.

No, your first statement, about Orgrim going neutral, was in post #2024, and your “war criminals” remark was in post #2029. Here’s a paraphrase of what I read leading up to the point where I jumped in:

You (#2024): “I hate Khadgar being neutral! Just imagine if Orgrim became neutral, and then you’ll understand why I hate it.”

Azighan (#2025): “As long as he was still friends with Thrall, I think that would be great.”

You (#2026): “But he wouldn’t help you when the Alliance tried to kill you.”

Azighan (#2027): “I still think it would be great, if we even had any heroes like that left alive.”

You (#2029): “Those so-called heroes are all war criminals.”

You brought up the “war criminals” thing (kind of out of the blue) as part of your attempt to convince Azighan that he would feel bad if a major Horde character became neutral. I joined in at #2032 to say that your point in #2029 didn’t support your point in #2024.

You then tried to double-flip the situation (#2033) by asking me how I’d feel about working with Daelin Proudmoore. Your first flip was in #2024, where you tried asking Horde players to imagine how awful we would (theoretically) feel if Orgrim Doomhammer became a neutral character! You did two 180s and came around to a full 360!

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

@Velskàr-stormrage

To be fair, it is a bit hypocritical for the Sin’dorei to condemn Void magic after all their people have been through with the Arcane/Fel.

Is it really? My reading of it was that their experience with arcane/fel was a lesson learned, and Umbric diving into void magic represented them backsliding into stuff they shouldn’t be messing with. Part of learning from your mistakes is that you don’t repeat them; it shouldn’t give others carte blanche to have their own freebie whoopsie before you’re allowed to reject it.

Except it turns out the blood elves were wrong to reject dangerous magic this time or something? The whole idea seemed pants-on-head to me, because you know people would be criticizing blood elves for not learning anything if they had accepted it.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Nah fel doesn’t react with light upon contact or just presence, but shadow does.

The Sunwell is delicate.