I suppose we’re never going to see eye to eye on this matter than. 
What exactly have those factions done to make up for their atrocities?
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For me, it’s more frustration with how blizz SAYS one thing about the horde, and than in the faction war, having them commit yet another horrible atrocity. I don’t want you guys to think I want the game to be miserable for you guys, I don’t. I just want blizz to be more consistent with their writing of the horde in the faction war.
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Sort of but no. In that scenario, there wouldn’t be a risk of the Horde being wiped out. They’d only lose a few towns here and there. Perhaps a city of we go really hardcore. The key is presentation. It wouldn’t be a group of idealistic human paladins who led the charge. It would be those who survived Teldrassil. Burdened with sorrow, and bursting with spite and anger. They would target horde settlements and civilians not necessarily because it’s right, but because they want the Horde to feel the pain they have gone through. Because they have gone through too much. They wouldn’t be heroes, just angry people lashing out.
See above and the above post of mine.
Nothing, but atleast they are honest about having done evil and being evil. I can work with that a lot easier than I can with those who pretend to have put their past behind them and act good.
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One again, the players only had/have the following choices:
Will you ever be able to separate the faction and the players? It’s really easy for me to do it with the Alliance.
Well, its possible. But I think the fundamental breakdown of discussion here is that when it comes to “Atonement”, it becomes increasingly difficult to separate what you do with the Horde Faction, with its players.
And this issue is further frustrated by the facts that:
- A) Blizzard has punished the Horde for BfA. Brutally. Ruthlessly. I just wasn’t the Alliance that got to do it. So the Alliance also getting to punish us on top of that is a tricky sort of fun.
- B) Blizz’s writers have actively been shaming the Horde playerbase for what they chose to do with our faction for 2+ years now. Which is scummy as hell, and lacking in self-awareness.
- C) The Alliance has become so absurd sinc Cata, that they literally are Morality itself in this setting at this point. Thus, the Horde can’t even prove or redeem itself outside of the overwhelmingly flawless lens of ALL virtues of the Alliance. Which is a fascinating prospect to consider.
- D) And as Gant implied, all of this amounts to Blizz sending the message that Horde players chose the wrong Faction all those years ago. We’re to blame for their turning the faction into plot-device.
Atonement, Redemption, Forgiveness. All are such vague, subjective, or given concepts that the Horde solely pursuing them is damning every Horde player into being a submissive and convenient accessory to the Alliance’s story from now on. Which is why discussions about those things on dozens of threads over the last two years eventually defaulted to “The Horde can’t really “earn” any of those things with “great acts”, so the only real way to move forward is to focus on rebuilding the Faction into something that might result in them as a byproduct down the road. But like always, no guarantees”.
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will you post your update? or where can i read your updates?
Then why are you so insistent on Horde paying for Teldrassil when it didn’t affect you?
Yes. Whenever I mention an update it is to post #4 in this thread. Specifically, the last few updates have been to the hypothetical at the end of that post.
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This could be, but this seems to me more of a misconception, at least in some way.
WC 2 Elves perhaps. In WoW they seeme way more leaning on to Warhammer Elves than Tolkien Elves. Which yes they took a lot inspiration from Tolkien. They are also rather different in their own ways. I could see it for WC 2 Elves in some way, not so much for WoW.
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Well, it still affected me. I played through bfa, after all. And the worst part of that storyline was by far 8.2.5, because nothing happened. All the things the Horde did, and now i’m supposed to just forget it. So I simply said no, I won’t forget it. And i’ll remember until things are settled.
Let me ask you this. Would it really be that awful to have a side storyline where the Horde tries to make up for what they did? I’m not talking quests, just a few npcs talking, perhaps some in game assets here and there. Perhaps a book to speed things along. It wouldn’t be the main storyline, not by a long shot. Just a side show.
Because I know what awful feels. I truly hated 8.2.5 with every fiber in my body. And I don’t want anyone to feel like that. And yet, I still feel like some things are needed to move forward for real.
Rant over.
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Let’s have a worst of both worlds thing where you get a bunch of tauren together who explicitly want to make amends and go on a pilgrimage for rebuilding, only to get murdered because the victims are only interested in retaliation instead of reparation.
Well, it would make “the cycle of hatred” not feel so increadibly hollow, at the very least. Still better than current affairs. Which should give you an idea of what I think of current affairs.
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The Horde was a Plot-Device and vehicle to settup SLs. Just as they were to settup MoP and WoD. Which is why I say that the current Baine is a perfect symbol, as just like him the Faction’s characterization needs are secondary to the stories’ needs to use us. Which is why they relied on forced McGuffins to place Garrosh and Sylvie in charge in the first place; and then silenced the majority of WC3 Horde (and those that represent it) for years until Garrosh and Sylvie did what they needed to to settup future content. Only to use that same WC3 Horde to save the faction from the consequences later.
And part of this (not all of it, but some) comes from how artificially pristine the Alliance is kept. Which is why the Purity Test of the Blue Faction became more and more pronounced around the same time the Red Faction became more and more a plot device. Cata. So long as they hold a monopoly on morality, there truly is very little chance the Horde will ever be allowed to genuinely “rebuild/redeem” itself. After all, if the Alliance is untouchable and can’t ever be allowed to act out on its thousands of motives/grievances, then the Horde will have to act instead (no matter how lacking in motive they are).
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It affected Horde (faction and players) as well. And anything done to the Horde in response will also affect the faction and players.
That’s why I’m working my hypothetical the way I am. I’m already of the mindset that you can’t please everyone. So, I’m hoping this will be at least somewhat satisfactory.
I’ve thought about this beyond my previous meme answer.
The only thing I’ve come up with is that Blizzard has to put in the work. That’s the end all, be all. They have to put in hard work and time to design a meaningful horde experience.
What I mean by that is, no more expansions with a shared questing narrative. I understand that it’s much easier to have zones where both factions do the exact same quests like in Shadow lands. But it does a disservice to the storytelling of both factions.
They need to design a questing experience unique to each faction. And they need to ensure that it’s the same team designing both sides so that there isn’t a disconnect like in BFA.
MoP also had a faction war and was a lot less disjointed. And regardless of what faction you played for, the story played to your faction’s strengths. Like how only a handful of trolls loyal to Garrosh are even on Pandaria, to the blood elves attempting to rejoin the alliance only for Jaina to push them fully to commit horde, to even Baine using a tauren ritual to speak with a spirit in the Summit.
This differed from BFA, which decided to tell similar stories but leave entire plot points out from either side. As a horde player, I didn’t know the horde employed San’layn until doing the Alliance quest chain and that is a problem. It doesn’t create areas of grey…it instead feels like straight being lied to by Blizzard. It also, from a gameplay perspective, feels like a missed opportunity because narratives didn’t weave together we’ll to create natural areas of world pvp via same hub questing.
So moving forward, Horde need their own questing…as does Alliance, and both should focus on how each faction approaches what they encounter. By focusing on more cultural things and allowing the appropriate races screen time to handle each situation (darkspear voodoo for bad magics, tauren spirit walkers for communing with the dead, etc ) the horde can get better stories that focus in their more tribal nature.
Especially now that they are a council. Keep charismatic leaders away from assuming full control, and lean heavily into the council making group decisions on the horse’s direction.
The WC3 ideology of ‘Leave alone so I can live my life, but if you bother me I will fight you’ needs to return to the horde.
Lastly, get an actual Horde fan on the writing team. Not a forsaken or Sylvannas fan, but a traditional Kalimdor Horde fan. It’s bad enough we have an entire expansion about the afterlife and shaman, who commune with the spirits of the dead (and Tauren as well) have been completely and utterly snubbed.
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The split questing experience was previously suggested by myself and Baal at the beginning of this thread. It’s a popular opinion on how to help move things forward.
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Right, and I’ll only be satisfied if something concrete happens, whether the Horde atones or is made to atone. That’s a point I will never budge from.
Because to be blunt, from my perspective with your suggestions, the Horde is rewarded for what they did in bfa. They get more characters, more screentime, a bigger role etc. They get to be the bid damn heroes off the backs of a genocide. They just drop Sylvanas and her loyalists like hot potatoes, and gets rewarded for it. For what ammounts to basically zero effort. I just can’t agree with that.
I’m not saying the Horde can’t be heroes, because they can. But part of being a hero is admitting and atoning for your misdeeds. We can have what you describe, together with a redemption arc.
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That’s an interesting interpretation.
Because their characters keep getting killed, Villain-batted or both.
No more than the Alliance.
No bigger than the Alliance.
The hypothetical isn’t finished.
Sylvanas did that too the Horde at the end of BfA.
You and I have very different ideas of what being rewarded is. If you consider still being a part of the WoW universe a reward than sure they are being rewarded.
Right, Horde players can’t play heroes until they bend the knee to Alliance players.
This is why so many Horde players are at odds with Alliance players. It’s why this thread exists. Because previous attempts at fixing the narrative for Horde is more about how to make Alliance players feel better superior.
If you care to keep checking in, I’ll continue making updates to my hypothetical.
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