How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

Alright, I mistook your intent. I thought you meant that meta wise, the Forsaken and Worgen are both equally good/bad. My mistake.
You’re right, that in game, a fresh faced Forsaken would not know of these events. But he probably would later on. How he reacts to that new information is a different thing entirely.

If he does, that’s a decent apology.

I said Horde, not Horde players. I don’t expect the players to fork over gold in some contrived quest.

Mod Edit: Removed inappropriate language.

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:partying_face:

:pancakes:

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Try and separate them narratively. Does it still work?

:pancakes:

Yes, because it would be quite difficult to cram in player characters in a book, but all the easier for non player characters to not be limited by the game itself.

You never do. When you get into Gilneas you fight the Worgen with conventional weapons. You never Blight bomb anything. You’re trying to seize the city, why would you render it uninhabitable?

Then the Alliance come out of nowhere and slam into the Forsaken army. They do horrible ish to the undead, like holding one down and making him watch as they kill all his men then leave him alive as a joke. And the humans loudly announce their intentions to march to Lordaeron and kill everyone. You feel an awful lot like you’re fighting for survival here.

Then it ends with Windy brokering a truce by ransoming Tess, and the Gilneans fall back behind Greymane’s Wall. So I still do not understand why they keep saying the Forsaken blighted or conquered Gilneas. You do neither. Slyvanas threatens to in the Worgen questline but it never happens on your end.

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Ok. So, players are supposed to choose the faction that is always right or the faction that has to make up for what it did to the faction that is always right.

But, I guess, since the players don’t have to actually go into their coffers and give it to the other faction it’s OK.

:pancakes:

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This is actaully wrong. After the battle of Gilneas city, Sylvanas gives the Order to Blightbomb the city, with all the Gilneans still in it. Why she would order that I do not know, but she did, and they did it. The Gilneans did fortunately get out however.

Yes, we call that “retaliation”. You’d have a hard time to find a single Gilnean with an ounce of pity left for the Forsaken after what they did.

Were the Blight catapults just for show then? And why then, was there a battleground for the place? Even if they did not succed in conquring it, they tried to, and have not let the Worgens go back. I’d say that’s enough to justify quite a bit of retaliation.

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No, but what is done is done. The Horde was in the wrong during bfa. That’s it, thats the entire story, minus the old god stuff. It was awful, and had I narrative power I never would have written such a junk storyline. All I want is some measure of closure to that storyline.

Yes, that’s what you are suggesting.

Us Horde players are painfully aware of that.

That goes for Horde players as well. I don’t think many Horde are itching to go from “picking the faction that is in the wrong” to “picking the faction that is in the wrong and trying to make up to the other faction”.

Restitutions, reparations, apologies won’t build up the Horde, or at least, make people want to play it or have Horde pride. Turning them into the Red Alliance won’t either. Hence the premise of this thread.

How do we rebuild the Horde?

Having the players experience more of the “you were wrong for making this choice” narrative isn’t a good start, IMO.

This is why in my suggestion post (post #4) I haven’t even mentioned the Alliance at all even for comparative purposes.

:pancakes:

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You don’t. :upside_down_face:

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Again you’re asking for the Forsaken to have knowledge they wouldn’t. Every human you encounter from Deathknell until basically the Argents in the EPL want you dead, regardless of what you’ve done.

All you know about Gilneas is Garrosh, who obviously hates you too, is strong arming you into this nonsense. It’s framed as a war dumped on your lap that’s turned into one for survival. The only reinforcements Garrosh sends are Orcs who crash their boat and are immediately defeated because they’re all drunk. You’re on your own here.

And yeah the Forsaken have their anti-personal catapults out. But if you’ve ever played an EBG with them you know they can fire anything- including people - and the canisters they’re armed with is low strength stuff that doesn’t even seem to kill the grass. The flamethrower on it seems just as if not more dangerous than their typical ordinance.

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The amount of people who have sufficient knowledge of history to call this stuff out and also play the game are probably at most 20 people, of which only 5 post on the forums, and none of the 20 are content creators.

I want to write a book when WoW is over, which is why I joined wowpedia. Or archive every little thing and start some groundwork.

But I also remind you how Gamergate played out.

I also remind you the recurring instances of Fascist and Slave RP in the RP servers.

I also remind you that “kek”, while at root a way to “laugh in Korean” so to speak, became popular in the West and recently Alt Right because of the WoW community.

So let’s say I used my substantial Tumblr platform and my small Twitter platform to launch a YouTube channel or Stream with some other WoW players where I talk about this stuff. Let’s say it’s a three person show, me (Afromestizo Latino) and Tammy (AfAm if I recall) and Makeba (Asian).

Let’s say we became viral.

We’d have to deal with

  • gamergate type of people
  • actual fascists who play WoW to roleplay Fascism on some level
  • Alt Right allies of those people
  • Liberal White Knights pearl clutching “NOBLE SAVAGE IS POSITIVE YOU’RE NOBLE WHAT DO YOU MEAN”
  • Blizzard White Knights
  • Golden White Knights

I once made a thread at least talking about Sylvanas this way, back in MoP, because around when half of MoP was over I had attempted suicide for the last time.

So I made a thread how I managed to survive after my suicide attempt because of WoW, but that Sylvanas’s story left a bitter taste in my mouth.

It was deleted within seconds. Seconds.

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Then why is it so distasteful for you to have the Horde offer restitution to the Alliance?

Will there be more pride in burying your head in the sands, indefinitely? Pretend that you are deaf whenever Teldrassil is mentioned? On and on, possibly forever?

If you are talking about similar events, yes. But not if you’re talking about fixing this event. It’s still here, and it’s not going away.

The player character, sure. But unless the Forsaken army doesn’t share information, they know very well why the Worgens and Humans want them dead. I’m not arguing that the pc is evil, since they simply don’t know what is going on. But the Forsaken were evil for doing what they did, and they knew that.

Taking into account that I did read the entirety of your post—which I sympathize with, and am sorry you had that kind of experience—do you truly predict this will happen in any recent/foreseeable future, then?

Because if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re basically predicting a “sinking ship/total collapse” scenario, where just about the only thing that can be done is after the fact, and even then it largely boils down to, “World of Warcraft: Here’s What Went Wrong” explanations.

How am I doing so far?

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Yup.

Which is going to happen eventually. Wow will die.

And when it does, theorists will pick at its carcass for decades to come. Myself included :stuck_out_tongue:

Because it hasn’t all been bad, as I’ve repeated time and time again.

But putting in effort to create content analyzing the ethnographic root of WoW’s peoples that will lead to way more harassment than otherwise (god forbid Golden would reach out asking for help) is just masochism.

I mean you saw how people responded to Roux, a heterosexual white woman, complaining about white men (probably after a date, or being ghosted by some guy).

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A former guildmate of mine was the one who posted in the MoP beta forum about Ji Firepaw’s dialogue and it resulted in her getting harassed and threatened so hard that she ended up changing her name and server to try to get away from it. I think the stress of it all ended up breaking her.

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Because the only choices we were given as players were:

  1. Play Horde, be wrong
  2. Play Alliance, be right
  3. Don’t play

Like the Alliance we had no say in the narrative.

You assume that’s what building the Horde means. When the Alliance playerbase can agree on what resolution for wrongs committed looks like they can offer them up.

We’re not trying to fix this event. We’re trying to fix the Horde.

:pancakes:

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In the whole Forsaken-vs-Worgen thing, are we forgetting that Genn and his wall are part of the reason why some of those Forsaken are undead in the first place? Like, there might be a grudge going back a looooong way here?

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Those were all dated shortly after the '16 election. See Bill Burr’s SNL opener for a better take on her reaction than I can give.

But I wasn’t particularly offended, and it was real cute to me the same people who will say cancel culture is out of control were the ones demanding she be fired.

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