Do you think Alliance players are supposed to enjoy fighting the Horde?
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I used to enjoy it but its ultimately frustating because before i can do any lasting damage khadgar/jaina/anduin yanks my chain and i have to play a goodboy again
Literally the best thing that happened to the alliance player experience in recent memory was going on a murder road trip (of justice) with Genn and Rogers to **** over Sylvanas in legion and accidentally save the universe
Horde players have the opposite problem in that they want to kill alliance, and thats fine on a vacuum. But the game forces them to go too far and now we’re in this mess
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I didn’t ask whether you have been enjoying it. I asked whether you think Alliance players as a group are supposed to enjoy it.
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We were the heroes that kicked Sylvanas out from Orgrimmar while the entire remainder of the Horde … right … no …
We were the heroes that got out of the way of the Alliance so they could defeat the Burning Legion. That… no …
Well in Draenor… no.
During MoP we fought off the True Horde at Orgrimmar… uh… huh… de ja vu… still no …
During the Cataclysm, Thrall went off and became a quasi-dragon super-earth wielding Shaman and Thrall founded Orgrimmar so… no that doesn’t work either …
I mean in Wrath of the Lich King we all fought pretty valiantly to kill the Lich King. so except for when that one segment of the Horde ended up dousing everyone in a plague bath … ugh …
So in Outland… ugh just nevermind.
Clearly I’m playing the wrong game.
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Yeah this is objectively the only time but our imaginations have to do the majority of the work “imagining” that it would be majority Horde going out of their way to help the Dragonflights defend Thrall
But even then they used an Alliance ship to catch up to Deathwing lol
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It honestly feels like the only time blizzard remembers the horde exists as a faction is when they think villian batting us and having them commit a genocide is a Heavy Metal Moment we should be proud of. 
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To be fair–G’huun?
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And most of Zandalar. We/the horde did help the zandalari out a ton with their internal problems
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Ok.
So I didn’t have a chance to respond to you yesterday so I am going to respond in a generalized summary of what you said because I am doing this over the phone and its annoying to respond point by point.
So in your opening argument you posted that you are not minimizing what the Horde has done but because whatever the Alliance does now is fair game because its a response to something like the Horde did.
At the end of your post you tell me you hope that you don’t think Daelin was right to do what he did because it isn’t and isn’t morally justified.
Sorry I am paraphrasing here but that was your message.
This is a contradiction don’t you think? First you complain that if Blizzard makes another Daelin he would have a point in doing so and at the same time you tell me Daelin was never right and shouldn’t be viewed positively from the Alliance perspective.
Maybe in your first point you meant NOW the Alliance can pull a Daelin but then that would mean NOW Daelin is justified because he was proven correct ultimately.
Which is it? We can’t have it both ways.
When we establish where we are on this issue we can begin how Horde can feel justified forward.
Secondly about the Orc internment camps and the continuous racist comparisons and belittling of people’s suffering from real tragic world events to the events of a video game that have little in common with each other.
Once again I ask that you guys stop making these tasteless comparisons. I understand you want to feel justified about your favorite faction by trying to make some comparisons but this is deeply offensive.
The Japanese AMERICANS were not enemy japanese combatants that US put in POW camps after a war which after extended use became internment camps.
These Japanese americans were betrayed by their own government from xenophobia and cheap political points.
The Orcs were imprisoned because they were an invading alien… like not illegal alien actual aliens from space. They came to exterminate humanity and take over the world with demon blood that messed with their minds. There were no Orc Alliance citizens that were unfairly targeted. They were a never before seen existential threat that could have been contained or destroyed.
The Alliance decided containment. This is what morally grey story telling is. And its great so lets appreciate it rather than make tasteless comparisons.
Please. I ask you guys to stop doing this.
Finally I wanted to touch on a final point and that is no matter what Blizzard does they are ultimately at the mercy of their audience so they have to make something that can be acceptable to them. The reason why we are having this conversation is because they failed doing that.
If we go with the current plan, last I read this thread, to make “ooo Alliance is racist now against the Horde… that is SO wrong! See guys? See? Grey Alliance!!”
You will have many, many Alliance fans that would be confused, they would see this prejudice against these Horde characters and races as justified based on past lore events no matter how hard Blizzard tries.
They will feel like they are being villain batted for no justified reason.
You guys will become the very thing you swore to destroy!
So I don’t think this narrative would work unless handled carefully and differently.
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Eh, less heroic, partially motivated by self interest (Sylvanas, Nathanos) outside of Baine and Rokhan in terms of “Horde leaders present”.
I suppose defending Dazaralor was heroic!
But meanwhile Jaina & Co. got off with zero consequences, not even a lecture from Talanji.
I mean yeah, but as a Horde player I changed to a Human for some reason just to loot the temple and move forward. It might just be me, but no part of that raid made me feel heroic.
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It is not a contradiction.
I have said many times that Daelin’s actions are understandable, but that they are still not morally correct.
The first part is based on objectivity, the second part on morality.
He was not “proven correct ultimately.” What he did was still wrong because of what the Horde was at the time.
Perhaps the absolutely worst thing that Battle for Azeroth did was give Alliance players a convenient excuse to meme-blast, “DAELIN WUZ RITE”.
Sure we can; the leaders of the Alliance—as seen with Daelin—are perfectly capable of committing atrocities without ever considering their actions to be atrocious.
That’s what makes for a great villain: they’re so convinced they’re in the right that they’ll never stop to question themselves, and thus must be called out/defeated by everyone else.
They have a lot in common, actually.
Oh, get over yourself already. This is basic analysis and reading comprehension.
Do you honestly think that storytelling just happens in a vacuum? That creators just randomly pull out ideas out of nowhere and that it’s somehow “original” or “unprecedented”?
Fantasy writing especially has always used RL history as its base—that’s why it resonates so strongly.
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I agree with your statement, though I would also add the modifier that much of those references derive from popular Orientalist depictions of Ottoman Turkish (and other West Asian) cultures, not the actual cultures themselves.
For example: I’m not an expert here, but I know that the way harems are depicted in popular Western media as this writhing pile of sultry, seductive playboy bunnies is far from the historical reality. In truth, many European visitors were forbidden from actually observing what harems were, so they just…made things up to be more exotic and enticing.
This can extend to many of the cultures referenced in WoW. They reference real-world cultures from a Western-centric standpoint, such that non-Western cultures are amalgamated and caricatured, slapped together until they’re about as unrecognizable as they usually are, while Western cultures are more often represented holistically–with historic political context sometimes wrapped up in their culture, to boot!
The Gilneans and Kul Tirans are clearly British (The Kul Tirans representing British expansion into the Caribbean and New World specifically), the dwarves are Scottish (with the Wildhammers and Bronzebeard feud even perhaps being a reference to the tensions between the Scottish highlanders and the pro-England loyalists). Meanwhile, the tauren are…kind of just a bunch of Native American tribes squished together.
(Sidenote: I would say the Pandaren are a decent example of a well-depicted non-Western culture. They don’t seem to suffer from amalgamation, like having Japanese or Korean cultural influences haphazardly tossed in, and there’s a variety of characters with a variety of perspectives on life. I do think Blizz has gotten a little better about this as of late, and what’s done is done, but I think it’s valuable to be able to recognize these patterns for the future.)
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Hey, give us credit where we’re due.
In Burning Crusade, the orcs dismantled Hellfire Citadel and freed (some of) their Fel orc brethren and incorporated them into the Horde.
Not to mention the blood elf civil war against Kael’thas.
In Wrath, yeah—we did fight valiantly. We got a beautiful, deeply-moving moment with Varok Saurfang and Varian Wrynn making peace with one another.
Most importantly, we learned why Saurfang doesn’t eat pork. 
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I actually did political science at University. Got a BA, then an MS (most of my work was on econometrics) and then an MA (I was working on a PhD but found academia to be too “political” in terms of “office”-style politics).
Mostly I just rely on the econometrics and do data engineering/modeling as a result.
I had nothing else to contribute here - just felt like replying.
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So…harems aren’t a group of people specifically employed/designated for sexual activity? 
Also, it does bear pointing out that the only “harem” we see in World of Warcraft is technically in a demonic temple, rather than being part of “mainstream” blood elf culture…
So basically Kael’thas was into harems, while Lor’themar prefers magical, monogamous purple ladies 
I agree but for the Alliance player this character is not a villain. How do you solve that problem? Or do you tell two seperate stories?
Great.
Lets go over them point by point.
You ready for this? Because I am.
No I don’t think it happens in a vacuum, history has many examples of internment camps and thats maybe where the inspiration comes from.
My problem is you are comparing the plight of the orcs in those camps after what they DID. To the Japanese Americans a after what they DIDN’T do.
Stop using these historical events to some how push a moral argument and complain when people call you out on it.
Its offensive. Stop it.
I am tempted to say put those analysis skills to the test and recognize both situations are nothing alike besides “ehhh people put in camps?”
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Oh they do. I’m currently working on updating each cultural section of the wowpedia pages (only have Trolls done) and Pandaren so far are my LONGEST section and I’m not even done.
Blizzard grabbed a lot of history and myths from China, slapped it into a blender, and poured it out.
Sure it’s all “from China” but China is enormous and diverse.
Same thing that they did with Tauren, where around 10 different Tribes/Nations were smashed together.
But yes, Blood Elves are an Orientalist representation of MENA Cultures™
For a Night Elf 
next to the Succubus Gardens
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*Narrator voice * He would not get over himself, and refuse to recognize historical or cultural inspirations being acceptable tools of analysis to analyze the meta-meaning of the narrative.
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For many Horde players, Sylvanas was never a villain prior to Battle for Azeroth.
They still whacked her with the villain bat, which means they can and should do the same to at least one major Alliance leader.
If that offends you, well…too bad.
So it’s not literally the same. Wow, shocking! It’s almost like it’s a retelling or adaptation of events! Imagine that!
I’m not “using” any historical events, I’m trying to explain that these events have already been used to inspire in-game events—that’s how storytelling works.
It would be more offensive if the orc internment camps were presented as having been justified, rather than Thrall the Chosen One liberating them like he did.
Correction: people of a certain culture being put in camps following a major attack of destruction and/or warfare on the part of some of their people.
But if this offends you, here:
Have a band-aid.
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