Yes, I suppose it does depend on if I ask someone literally willing to write literal fanfic to ensure the Alliance is never in the wrong for anything!
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You should go ahead, I’ve only ever made one thread about Elune being an Old God and I intend to keep it that way.
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You think Elune is an Old God too?!
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Interesting. There are nicer…as in CN…Old Gods in Pathfinder so the concept is not entire foreign.
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Gotta remember that was not the first time the Trolls dealt with Elves.
They likely thought this was another great humiliation like with Aszhara (which considering the founding of Quel Thalas, kind of was).
We also don’t really know who attacked whom first in the case of humans v trolls, as it’s just stated that the human tribes ‘also suffered against them’.
Alright. Hit me with the sources you no doubt have.
There’s zero mention of them or the Titanforged in general showing up and attacking trolls in Chronicles save for:
Chronicles Volume 1, Page 126
One tribe, the Arathi, came to realize the error of its ways. Over the span of a few decades, troll incursions into human territories had become more pronounced and ruthless. Something was changing among the brutish Amani to the north.
And regarding elves, the trolls struck the first blow against the Highborne that showed up in the Eastern Kingdoms because they saw them as an extension of the Night Elf Empire, but were refugees.
Chronicles Volume 1, Page 120
The arrival of the Highborne infuriated the trolls, who harbored a bitter hatred of elves from the days of Queen Azshara. The Amani sent out raiding parties immediately, and the Highborne soon learned to fear troll ambushes in the dense forests.
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It’s in that same page that it says the Elves had already started heading towards what would be Quel’Thalas, aka in the middle of the Amani Heartlands.
ie, the Elves were literally invading the Amani homelands, the Amani send raiders to push them away; and the Elves dig their heels in and continue fighting forward.
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So, from most of what I’ve seen, I made up a list of “items” I think would move toward… sure let’s call it rebuilding. They’re really in no order. I don’t know if every step is “necessary” per se, but I think they move a long way toward moving the Horde in the right direction. Some of these are personal favorites that others will dislike, but alas, I would be remiss to not include them:
1). Calia Menethil dies in the Maw trying to save Arthas. Or she’s a minion of the Jailer and gets murdered in her face. Or she’s a harbinger of the invading Army of the Light and gets murdered in her face. Or she is abandoned by her family and attacked mercilessly only to be saved by Lilian Voss, hurts more Forsaken than she helps using her powers of the Light, and ends up involved in group therapy sessions with the Forsaken. Basically, keep her and her underlying racist trope out of the Forsaken. It’s patently disgusting. She can have her storylines, whatever, but please avoid the repulsive storyline where the “Good Light Human” comes and saves the “Savages” and points them to being “Righteous.” I am flexible on the how, but this is non-negotiable.
2). Walk back the genocide of Teldrassil in-game. In novels, Elegy talks down the amount of deaths; describing the war, Sylvanas puts siege weapons in a position to encourage people to flee. Let’s put this to bed and never use the word genocide regarding Warcraft again. And sure we can rez some of the folks who died from Shadowlands, etc, but ultimately, we’re in a world of magic, there are portals, most people survived. End of (retconned) story. And we can have cinematics of traumatized folks who lived and how many folks were frightened with them but still survived.
3). After returning from Shadowlands, the feral Scourge are still rampant while the Forsaken are mostly just homeless. The Knights of the Ebon Blade assist the Forsaken in building an immense Necropolis to serve as their new city. It will patrol over the Plaguelands and Tirisfel Glades and help save any feral Scourge that can be saved - and kill the others. Gazlowe can be seen tinkering around the outside and it’s pretty clear he isn’t adding fancy drapes.
4). While the new “Overcity” (I suck at names) is being built, the Royal Apothecary Society sends a team in WoW-style Hazmat suits through Silverpine Forest and they begin applying their new “Plague-B-Gone” formula (patent pending) to the edges of Gilneas. Many Worgen still watch the area and word gets out to Genn Greymane who prepares to launch an offensive to prevent the Forsaken from claiming their lands. As their forces prepare to strike, a Forsaken removes their helmet and tries to calm the Worgen. Genn Greymane recognizes it as Derek Proudmoore and orders his forces to stop. A rogue Worgen strikes at Proudmoore, his bloodlust against the Forsaken leading him to attacking him where he stood before Greymane restrains him. The Worgen faces toward Greymane sneering some remark about cowardice in front of the enemy and Greymane literally rips his throat out. Not figuratively. Literally. Proudmoore - wounded but alive - explains to Greymane they are trying to cleanse Gilneas of the plague. They weren’t sure it would work, but they’ve had good results so far and are hoping the Gilneans will be free to return home in the near future. Proudmoore isn’t sure where his home is yet, but for right now, he thinks his future is in trying to help people wherever he can. Greymane helps him up and someone is band-aid spec nearby and casts first aid on Proudmoore.
5). The Horde military forces in Ashenvale signal a truce to the Night Elves and messenger for a meeting. As they approach, behind them are the Tauren members of the Cenarion Circle and other Spiritwalkers who have come to help restore the damages done to/around Teldrassil. Once the Night Elves agree to escort them safely - the Horde military withdraws completely from Ashenvale. At Teldrassil, the Cenarion Circle try to heal the damages done to the land, remarking about the power of the Azerite. The Night Elves mention the Alliance had stored some there for defensive purposes and that was how such a gigantic tree burned down so quickly. (This must not come across as making the tree death as reasonable - it’s just that the tree is huge and strong and burnt to a crisp in seconds and that’s really stupid).
Neither their efforts nor those of the Night Elf druids seem to be having an effect and the players can see a miasma around the base. The Tauren Spiritwalkers visit their elders and are told they must embrace their own strength not the strength of others if they wish to succeed. Upon completion of their journey the Tauren begin a ritual calling for aid from the Earthmother. They call for An’she and Mu’sha to show her what they need to help. The darkness splits and a giant ball of orange-pink fire comes crashing down onto the burnt husk of Teldrassil, initially causing a cry of anger from the Night Elves. The fire though penetrates through the ground and singes the corruption from the roots of Teldrassil removing the miasma. In the sky a plume of wild fire shaped like a phoenix (similar to Ashes of Alar) splits the night before pure darkness returns and moonlight bathes Teldrassil - and foliage begins to grow. The power of the Spiritwalkers eventually leads to … Baine being able to do something. At some point. Somewhere.
6). Due to the Accuser being forced into siring Gresit, part of the Venthyr campaign will portray introducing the new Venthyr to his duties. Because she is occupied by a number of things - and Kael’thas still has his pride to deal with - he assigned to the Mad Duke Theotar for atonement. He arrives to find Theotar having tea with Vulca, Lady Sybille, and of course, Garrosh (who is not thrilled to see a Blood Elf nor is he thrilled with his tea party). They hate each other initially, but eventually grow to respect and help each other. Players will get new world quests for their parts in Theotar’s tea parties and within the Venthyr covenant they participate in the storyline to save Shadowlands (which we presumably do). At the end, due to the scale of their heroism, Prince Renethal offers them the opportunity to return to Azeroth, as mortals, and continue their atonement there. If they decline, they can stay and continue their path in Revendreth. If they accept and fail, they will go straight to the Maw. Kael’thas says he has much left to do to earn his redemption and Garrosh points out that while the punishment of their souls is deserved, it doesn’t help fix the destruction they caused. Then Garrosh asks Theotar if the Mad Duke believes Garrosh will be able to not falter in his quest - Lady Sybille says something no one understands and Theotar says “Too True Lady Sybille” - while Kael’thas adds that he will be there to help Garrosh stay on the path to redemption. Renethal smiles at their answers, recognizing they have chosen for the correct reasons, and sends them off to Azeroth where the two form a wandering set of neutral NPCs that both factions will do quests with in expansions.
As an example first quest line, a group of humans are attacked by bandits, before Garrosh and Kael’thas arrive and beat them back easily. The thankful humans - more than slightly afraid - invite them back to their … let’s just call it a hovel. They offer them food in thanks; it’s not very good. Garrosh tries to sit down to the table and he can’t fit in the chair which breaks under him. Garrosh asks what has been causing the issues for this town - why they don’t have fresh food - and while the family explains the issues with the bandits, in his anger Kael’thas accidentally sets the hovel on fire. Everyone escapes and we then build them a new house - a better house - and Garrosh gives the family’s youngest daughter a toy he had as a child, which is utterly horrifying, but which the daughter loves. Afterward, Kael’thas and Garrosh go on a murder hobo spree inside a bandit camp that has been plaguing the town. While they do, we grab all the fresh supplies and bring it back to town for everyone.
7). Thrall encounters Garrosh toward the end of the expansion. Garrosh is thankful for Thrall ending his pain and suffering. Garrosh was so angry, so prideful, so frustrated, and felt so alone. Most of all, looking back, he abhors what he became. He absolves Thrall of his guilt, stating plainly that if Revendreth has taught him anything it is that he is responsible for what he did, not Thrall. He (Garrosh) was once honorable. He knew mercy. He loved his people. And he allowed power to corrupt him and failed to be what he should have been, what Thrall saw in him. It wasn’t Thrall’s fault. And after about 10 minutes of Garrosh explaining to Thrall that he isn’t to blame, Thrall finally stops being mopey. If it takes more than 10 minutes, maybe one of the Venthyr folks is done working on Eeyore and can take a few him on fixing Thrall right up.
8). Assign each race a set of 3 sub races. Each race gets a common racial, and each sub race has their own “distinct” racial. Goblins, Pandarians, and Vulpera don’t quite fit yet but they can… somehow. I think. Heck make all 3 of them neutral honestly.
Horde:
- Orcs -> Orgrimmar, Mag’har, Mok’Nathal OR Frostwolf, Warsong, Mag’har (but come on, who doesn’t want to be Rexxar)??
- Undead -> Forsaken, and … Darkfallen (San’layn), Dark Rangers, Lightborne?
- Tauren -> Thunder Bluff, Highmountain, Thunder Cleft
- Trolls -> Darkspear, Zandalari, Amani
- Elves -> Blood Elves, Nightborne, Illidari?
Alliance:
- Humans -> Stormwind, Gilnean, Kul Tiran
- Dwarves -> Wildhammer, Dark Iron, Bronzebeard
- Elves -> Night Elves, Void Elves, Shen’dralar (or High Elves if you prefer)
- Gnomes -> Anvilmar, Gnomeregan, Mechagnome
- Draenei -> Eredar, Lightforged, Ashtongue
9). Anduin refuses to serve willingly, the Jailer turns him into a Death Knight via Shalamourne. Upon his return to Stormwind - still all Death Knighted up - the nobles turn on him and refuse his claim to the throne. While they dont attack their former king they also refuse to accept him. He is welcomed into the Knights of the Ebon Blade by Nazgrim with whom he strikes up a friendship. Don’t worry we will be using him as a plot device later when we (Alliance and Horde) fight to return the true King to the throne of Gondor… I mean Stormwind… and remove the usurpers.
10). Reserved for comments on Sylvanas that I need to think about.
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I’m still not sure if this is the “How Can We Redeem The Horde” thread or the “How Can We Ruin The Alliance” thread
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How could you possibly ruin the Alliance more than being the boring, homogenized, push-over Anduinified Human-Centric 18-year old full of wisdom sharing it with beings that have been alive for thousands of years mess that the Alliance is today?
EDIT: I’m not being cheeky, I actually don’t know how you could do worse.
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Ok, but then the opposite end of that spectrum is what we have now, with the creators in question apparently being so disconnected that they will literally do something that simultaneously alienates players in both factions and think it’s a “good idea.”
Speaking as someone who’s currently trying to self-start a career in writing, I love fanfiction. Some of the best “sequels” to much-beloved games I’ve played have been fanfics. And even in terms of fantasy writing, I’m happy to read fanfiction. I would argue that the issue is less about, “Well, we can’t read fanfiction, there’s a risk we’ll end up ‘stealing’ specific works.” That’s a rather alarmist mindset, when you really think about it.
If you’re that worried about needing to create something “100% brand new,” you’re not only pressuring yourself needlessly, you’re inevitably setting yourself up for failure because you literally cannot create something that is “completely new” or “unrecognizable from existing works.” All fantasy writing is recycled material in one way or another, and that goes for all writing in general. It’s how the collective human consciousness works: we’re all constantly learning from one another.
Even J.R.R. Tolkien used the final chapter of Beowulf to write The Hobbit.
What’s more important is learning to recognize and understand the overarching/common themes, essentially the building blocks of the genre, particularly those that have proven most popular and enduring over time.
Because as I said before, Blizzard’s apparently become so disconnected that they genuinely thought the removal of two major capital cities—one of which was done via major act of genocide—was a “good idea.”
And it wasn’t a fanfic they were trying to emulate; it was Game of Thrones.
It could be worse, we could be the Horde.
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The willingness to alter the status quo by taking away capitals is actually a really good idea because otherwise the setting stagnates.
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Pick your poison, I guess. Either you’re the ugly faction who’s doomed to forever have its characters plucked from a lineup and beaten with villainy to constantly start and then lose each war, or your the faction of pretty people who are doomed to forever be forgiving at the last minute denying any sense of actual payback. Either way, two groups of people are kind of left unsatisfied.
This is why it’s probably best there should never be another faction war in WoW.
Ever.
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In general, there’s nothing wrong with altering the status quo—this in itself is the big reason why Reign of Chaos proved so popular, by introducing a new story in which the orcs ended up being heroic.
And even
isn’t necessarily a bad thing in itself, no—we could always use new capitals (which we got with Kul Tiras and Dazar’alor) or even updated/expanded ones (like Gilneas or Suramar).
It’s more the way in which Teldrassil and the Undercity were removed that was done so poorly, especially considering that the former simultaneously victimized one faction and villainized the other.
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What is your suggestion for making it so that Horde players (who care about the story) can enjoy fighting the Alliance?
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Maybe Horde players aren’t supposed to enjoy fighting the Alliance. Or perhaps the Horde shouldn’t base its sense of self-worth on the extent to which it can feel good about killing Alliance.
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Maybe we should just play Hello Kitty Adventure and work together to solve crimes and host tea parties.
EDIT: Seriously, what game do some of you think you are playing? Are you playing Warcraft? Are you playing a game that has been focused on faction conflict for its entire existence? Hello? Buehler? Anyone?
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If you want faction conflict and you also want to feel good as a Horde player for killing Alliance, you are just asking Blizzard to make the Alliance worse. The fact that Horde players genuinely can’t seem to think of a way to gain faction pride that doesn’t involve tearing down the Alliance just speaks to how fundamental the narrative problems with the Horde are, since it suggests that literally the only thing that defines the Horde in the eyes of its players is “the faction that beats up the Alliance.”
I mentioned before that this is probably due to the Alliance being the only proper “status-quo” faction that wants to restore Azeroth to it’s pre-Third War peace while the Horde is just one revisionist faction among dozens that seeks to alter the world to suit its own ends.
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Fair enough. I do not disagree with anything you wrote just now. I do indeed want to make the Alliance worse. I do think think that Blizzard has put us in a position where that is the only option and it is an example of how fundamental the narrative problems with the Horde are.
You got me.