No, the story never should have gotten to the point where he had to rebel against another warchief in the first place.
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So rewrite the entire BFA storyline rather than fix little things here and there.
After removing the Alliance equivalent on Kalimdor. Difference is, the civilian population didn’t burn to death in Lordaeron’s case.
Also, captured who was then let go after no time at all.
And then 8.2 destroyed our fleet as well, making that victory completely pointless.
The blighted hellhole it is now.
Unsure if there are still Horde strongholds in the area. Wouldn’t surprise me.
Not to sound callous but what do the civilian population numbers add to the narrative? We don’t even know how many died? Regardless it didn’t prevent the Night Elves from doing anything.
Just like the WoT.
Is still Alliance territory. Again, never said it was a big fist pumping thing.
But the Alliance still won.
And, again, I’m not saying you should be happy with what you got. I know I wasn’t, that’s why I quit.
I count Saurfang as loss. That’s why my proposal doesn’t include retcons of BfA or Shadowlands or resurrecting old characters.
Btw you didn’t respond to what I said about your proposal.
Was it fair or not?
Must have missed it. I’ll go back and see if I can find it.
If they did everything I suggested, probably 2 - 3 expansions.
Partially, while the story diverged for Alliance and Horde after the Dark portal was destroyed on AU Draenor they still converged throughout the expansion and especially at the end.
I’d suggest if a story beat does not involve one faction, leave them out entirely (example: MU Orcs going to and trying to stabilize Outlands to prevent its degradation).
Story-wise it could have expanded orc lore in a significant way. It did. But it wasn’t all that good for orcs or the Horde in general.
I’m not sure about alternating focus because it could lead to fatigue on whatever side isn’t the “active” side for that patch. In my hypothetical, there is a divergence but both factions are active but accomplishing different tasks.
As I’ve previously mentioned, I’m not trying to fix the Alliance and I don’t think I’m in a position to try. I’m approaching the hypothetical from the standpoint of “The Horde isn’t going after the Alliance, taking anything from the Alliance or turning into the Alliance. What the Alliance does with that is on them.”
If, when I’m done with my hypothetical, you want to suggest stuff for the Alliance in my hypothetical to “fill in the gaps” as it were feel free.
Shamanism isn’t pacifism.
Probably, Horde development didn’t have to be intrinsically tied to the Alliance.
The only reason my hypothetical seems to focus more of the Horde is because I’m coming at it from a Horde perspective. Again, both factions are active and both can get their cinematics. But I’m not going to attempt to plug in a lot of detail for Alliance as I’m sure I’ll misrepresent something that would be unpopular to Alliance posters reading it.
Again, I’m not excluding the Alliance from anything in the hypothetical just not detailing it as much as the Horde. In fact, it is the decisions of The Alliance (at this point in the hypothetical) that force the Horde to react instead of the other way around.
It would require Blizzard not being lazy with content and ensuring everyone within the dev team communicating so that the story (while enjoyed from differing perspectives) is coherent.
Both factions would get screen time and there would be minimal overlap. That is, screen time (cutscenes, quests and even a dungeon) devoted to the Alliance rift closing team and its goals wouldn’t involve Horde unless 100% necessary (such as when the Alliance team closes the final EK rift).
Several people tried to turn this thread into one of those, but once you get enough productive conversation it gets better.
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I am sure but its almost essentially same debates that boils down to this singular argument.
Alliance can’t punish the Horde because first off they don’t have much left and secondly they suffered enough so leave them alone.
Which causes the victim olympics threads that we have all participated in.
There is also one more thing. Whatever this Horde rebuilding would be is it going to address all the horrible things that they did? That was one of the problems of BFA wasn’t it?
It made the story worse given it retcon’d “orcish bloodlust” as an inherent genetic quality of the race instead of a product of demonic corruption.
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I mean, yeah. 
Taking a character whose entire identity was basically supposed to be “never again” and making him do it again just ruined Saurfang’s entire appeal to me and I no longer cared how he went out.
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That sentiment runs rampant here. I think found a workaround in my hypothetical. A way for the Alliance to “hit back” against the Horde but maybe not in an expected way. Hence why I had a particular character perform a significant action. I know it probably isn’t satisfactory to everyone but I doubt there is a solution that pleases everyone.
In my opinion, the best thing the Horde can do to address things such as The BoT is take steps to ensure it doesn’t end up in a place where that can happen again (read: Horde has to change). It has already acknowledged some of these wrongs (Thrall going to Hyjal) and taken steps to mitigate future risk (eliminate warchief position). If you’re looking for me to suggest some kind of penance or reparations I can’t do that because I don’t think those will be productive. The way forward, to me, is to show that the Horde can, while not necessarily liking them, coexisting in the same world as the Alliance and when needed help protect Azeroth in their own way that doesn’t take anything from the Alliance.
Says the poster child for “muh Alliance victory RePrEsEnTaTiOn or GTFO” drivel I´ve been hearing since Cata… no wait since Vanilla in regards to Lordaeron.
So dearest, if you were worried my attitude would eclypse your own broken record history, fear not cause I´m clearly out of your league in regards to ENTIRE YEARS qqing for stuff.
So the issue is getting it, amrite? I mean your whole contribution to the thread named: “How can we Redeem / Rebuild the Horde” has basically been “punish them moar -sucks for the players but muh suffering is moar important- so I can feel good. I don´t even care how the faction gets rebuild as long as the Alliance gets to feel good about it!”.
And if this is your input supposedly IN FAVOR of Horde players and the Horde experience, then please, in the case of getting your dream come true, abstain from posting more suggestions cause I dread to think the horrors you would imagine and the even more terrorific way you´ll justify those horrors.
None, but it´s funny you think OUR anguish will totes help feeling better. Typical double standards.
Sorry but this is like the third time you post this bad taste joke, not precisely considerate nor sensible for someone supposedly VERY sensible to the point he copuldn´t play Horde in BfA.
And Erevien is a HORDE supremacist, not a mere elf one… erasing the Belves won´t make him less obnoxious he will just pick another Horde race and move on.
Did you even bothered to read? I DID tell you you were ALONE in this, didn´t I?
Wrong, we DO keep in with the times instead of pretending the Nelf characterization stayed in stasis on WC3. Saying Nelves should totes defeat the collective military efforts of 6 entire Horde races combined is like saying the Belves should defeat with their pinkies the efforts of 6 Alliance races combined if they get attacked in Quel´thalas. Which I´m quite certain NONE of you would accept EVER --heck I wouldn´t accept that, cause it´s dumb AF.
You are quite familiar aren’t you? Buy me a drink first and then we will talk.
I don’t recall actually making a “kill every elf” joke before that post. Tried running a search on it and the closest I got was a single post where you first called me out on not liking the fact that Lor’themar was effectively becoming the face of the horde. Maybe you’re mixing that up with my overall disappointment and annoyance at their prevalence that I’ve expressed before.
Dunking on Elves is everyone’s sacred duty and it’s nothing to feel ashamed about.
I can’t speak for Moghrel, though I think he’ll agree with me, the biggest issue for many NE and Worgen players is Teldrassil, people just want that to be properly addressed and for the horde to show some remorse for a genocide they WILLINGLY committed.
It’s a hill many of us refuse to budge from and one I’m personally willing to die on 
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No one knows what “properly addressed” means. Not saying it shouldn’t be properly addressed, only that no matter how it is addressed some won’t like it.
They have already.
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Well, for one, the Horde didn’t “willingly” commit genocide. Not by techicality.
The Horde was made a tool for a single Genocidal Act, by Sylvanas (the only person you can concretely point to who intended that sort of event). The WoT that Saurfang designed literally required both the NE Nation and NE Leadership to survive in order to put pressure on Anduin. Which is why any rogues that killed civilians were doing so against his orders in the prepatch. There was also never any intent to “genocide” the NEs either before or after Teld itself. Not within Saurfang’s planned WoT, and not within the Darkshore Warfront. And no one but Sylvanas knew what was awaiting them in the Tree. Even Saurfang’s initial response to the order was “are they not going to surrender? Is the Alliance already here?” For most Horde soldiers that order would more line up with say … the US’s public reasons for using the Atomic Bomb on Japan in WW2.
Beyond that annoying technicality though. They have shown remorse. Any time any not Sylvie (and her cult of inner loyalists) Horde member was allowed to have any reaction to Teld … its been nothing but Guilt and Remorse. For 3+ years. Throughout BfA. Throughout Shadows Rising. Throughout Shadowlands. Its just with Blizz nearly writing Teld out of the Horde’s BfA Story (out of convenience for Sylvie), and the Horde having so little representation in Shadowlands … opportunities for that remorse are few in game. Because Horde characters are either silenced for plot convenience, or sparse as all hell.
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When? Beseides the shadows rising novel that most people didn’t read.
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