How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

Lore Story Forum
2191

Anduin is a symptom of the underlying writing philosophy that makes the situation worse, but he’s not what’s causing it. If anything, at worst, he’s just a really easy excuse for Blizz to operate off the Alliance “purity test” that has been slowly reinforced since Cata. Getting rid of him might get rid of the easy excuse, but it wont solve the core problem. That Blizz seems compelled to self-reinforce. It also wont solve the problem of Alliance players reveling in the Faction’s inherent Moral Absolutism, or getting mad any time its infringed upon.

Hell, if anything, what I’ve seen many Alliance players complain about with Anduin is that he’s inhibiting them from “getting their revenge”. But there is bizarre undercurrent of wanting to simultaneously “take the gloves off” … but “still keep their hands clean”. Which suggests that its not Anduin’s morality in of itself that they find to be the problem, but instead that his morality (and in fact, the Moral Absolutist fantasy he represents) being used to undermine the Alliance expected “Power Fantasy”. Where as (for example) in Legion, that Moral Absolutism was working in tangent (rather than opposition) with that sort of Absolutist Power Fantasy expected.

6 Likes
2192

I think the NE power fantasy is just that.
Enchanted forest that needs to be guarded and offers incredible defensive value.
Once thats over they are pretty much nothing.

Thats why this whole Nightwarrior and moon army is such a joke.
Its like Dwarves without a mountain city, why bother having Dwarves at that point?

1 Like
2193

No no, that seems to be exactly what you want. EVEN if you were to get “just” Ashenvale back. So then, the issue is Pride after all. Understandable. Thanks for answering my questions.

As for the original topic:

In a game that is as heavily instanced as WoW is, ( parts of it are still in Cata, others in BfA, etc ) the only stable foundation is the Characters and that is where the Horde needs most help. I don’t want more talking heads and pretty cut scenes though. I’d want to go on quests with them and get to know them through their actions. Feel like I’m part of a greater whole.

As a player ( especially a Horde player ) you always stand alone. I’m a Hero, a Champion, THE maw walker but I’m never with my own. I’m a Tauren Druid surrounded by Nelves in Cenarion content, I’m a Horde freshly allowed back in Dalaran in Legion, I’m a living mortal in the Shadowlands, the ONE good Horde among “neutral” blue quest givers etc. I’m a fan of the concept of an expansion where we go back to our roots, back to Azeroth and use our considerable clout as a “Hero” to improve our own with the help of the Horde’s main cast in the field.

I know we’re probably talking about tech flexing the likes of which we’ve never seen in 16 years of WoW but I’d love to see us “repair” the Barrens, clean up the ruins and refresh the conflict with the Alliance encroachers and Dwarves. Not remove them, just update the battle lines and motivations and instance the Garrosh content. Same with Stonetalon, Feralas, Durotar, Desolace, etc. Hell, use the newly freed realestate to show some of the solutions the Horde has implemented to help their people survive. I know that’s unlikely to happen because that’s not the kind of expansion that’s going to sell a lot of copies.

Still, as Horde players we are stuck playing through the darker days of our recent history with every new alt or the “one good Horde” in content that sees the Alliance tolerate us for the common good. The last time I had a good sense of the Horde as an entity, a “nation” per say was vanilla through WotLK. I’d like to get that feeling back. If we could just get that back and develop our own cast of characters, I’d be happy. We don’t need demigods to stand on the same footing as the Alliance. We need our cast to be meaningful to us first and the best way to do that is to involve them in our struggles, boots on the ground, ensuring the survival of the Horde alongside the PC.

7 Likes
2194

Okay, but even Lorien could have been overrun eventually by superior numbers. It was more secure than most places in Middle-Earth, but not impossible to take.

6 Likes
2195

Are you putting the Horde on the same level as the combined armies of Mordor?

2196

Only in terms of relative numbers.

2197

I mean the Night Elves have had forest encroachment and damages since Cataclysm. See Warsong Gultch and the lumber yards for reference but in LOTR they never managed to burn the wood elf cities and palaces did they?

The WE lost ground but nothing too damaging.
If we want to make a warhammer comparison its the same thing. The bad guys never managed to destroy the big tree until the very end and by then it was the end times.
Thats basically what Blizzard did but backtracked it.

2 Likes
2198

They also had their militaries present for those.

:pancakes:

2199

Not sure how to respond to that.
Was that a gotcha statement or a fyi statement?

2200

Doriath fell—to dwarves (in the Silmarillion).

Sauron constructed Dol Guldur in the middle of Greenwood the Great, a wood elf realm, and turned it into Mirkwood.

Gondolin fell.

Tolkien’s elves are skilled and amazing fighters, but they’re not invincible, even on their home terrain.

11 Likes
2201

I thought we were specifically talking about the third age where things are a bit more… grounded.

2202

Gondolin was against melkor and melkor would be like a fight against sargeras in his true form without plotarmor

2203

Nope, Myalison mentioned Doriath along with Lorien, so we’re talking about more than just the third age.

It fell to Morgoth/Melkor’s army. He didn’t come and personally smash it.

1 Like
2204

I guess but I struggle to put the Horde on that level strength even at the best of times much less after what the Horde was allegedly at after the Legion invasion.
Probably a big stretch to think if the Horde is as numerous and strong as the Mordor army relatively to everyone else in TA.
But I am not a big lotr buff so maybe I am wrong I fully admit that.

2205

Na but his army was much more powerful then later mordor.

Balrogs, beasts, dragons. It was an entire different beast

2206

You don’t think the entire Horde is the equal of an army of Tolkien’s dwarves, like the ones that took Doriath?

The elves of Gondolin were arguably more powerful than the Night Elves of WoW, too.

1 Like
2207

Hypothetical question:

If what I’m hearing is true, then Alliance players wanted a successful defense of Darkshore due to the wooded terrain. So if they get that successful defense, then…

…the Horde starts the war, doesn’t make it as far as Teldrassil, and proceeds to lose every other battle that occurs? Since BfA taught us that the Horde loses in both a more guerrilla war setting (Darkshore battlefront) and an open plains battle (Arathi battlefront).

Is this correct?

5 Likes
2208

No doubt, thats even the point. Sauron would most likely lost do gondolin if he alone would started a siege, but it wasn’t sauron/mordor.

It was melkor’s army

2209

Agreed. I didn’t mean to suggest that it would be impossible for it to be overrun. But by the same token, having it overrun in a matter of days/weeks (You know I am not really sure the time scale - I think it was days or weeks) was a pretty big stick in the eye of what I am suggesting is the actual Night Elf power fantasy. Even in our world, up until the modern period a force on the defensive in its home territory can hold a superior force at bay for a significant period of time.

Add to that, the absurdity of having smugglers know the Night Elves’ territory better than they do. Plus the silliness of the Horde being able to slowly haul catapults through Ashenvale and Darkshore while still going at breakneck speed and not losing those catapults to Night Elf guerrilla attacks…well, that stick in the eye just got a bit bigger.

1 Like
2210

Zahirwrite: My point is that Melkor’s army didn’t outclass the elves of Gondolin by as large a margin as that by which Sargeras would outclass the Night Elves of Wow. So it still comes down to numbers.

Myalison: Oh, I’m not saying the WoT was in any way well written. It was not.