Tink, shmyak, grunt, tink.
M … There are arts dedicated to WoT and BfL. It was unexpectedly not to find the art for the BfDA. Okay. And only the WoT art is a bit tragic. BfL is heroism. Not that I was looking for a long time.
Thank’s, Sarm.
I wonder if there’s a way for Zelling to be brought back to Undeath, that way the Cult of Forgotten Shadows can be a “mixed religion” of:
- Natalie Seline’s OG reversal of the Church of Light (Respect, Tenacity, Power; focus on becoming Shadow Ascendants as a goal)
- with Tidesage Heretics use of Void (keeping the Tidemother, which is probably Elune, but with a twist; or replacing her with the Tidefather ie N’zoth since he’s been defeated materially speaking). In an alternate universe, I’d also suggest Helya but Shadowlands chose not to work with “Odyn is actually also bad, and abused Helya”.
He must be in the Maw and all.
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If you haven’t figured it out by now, no one really cares.
We can very easily see where your priorities lie and it isn’t in rebuilding the Horde.
You laid out your proposal (in a different thread) and received plenty of feedback regarding how little it does for addressing what Horde players feel are issues with the faction. You didn’t even bother at the time identifying what Horde issues your proposal attempted to address.
If you don’t understand what those concerns are why pretend you can address them?
You get feedback on your proposal and you double down on it and say “it just works”. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong because obviously you have the greatest insight into what the Horde’s issues are, right? You even tried to frame the Horde losing to the Alliance more as the Horde not losing. But we’re supposed to believe you’re actually sincere in wanting to rebuild the Horde?
You bring up stuff like that stupid memesis thing to downplay how Horde players feel about their content and push your narrative that the Night Elves have it so much worse (with your decade of humiliation).
At no point in any of your ramblings did it seem like you were interested in anything if it didn’t involve Night Elves in some way, shape or form. I and others have laid out numerous issues that we believe need addressing regarding the Horde. Many of these have literally zero to do with the Night elves or Alliance. Instead of addressing the issues you again default to your proposal which, by the way, has little support from either side of the faction divide. You like to “unpack” things and yet with several lists of Horde issues identified you prefer to obfuscate, misdirect and downplay.
Which begs the question, exactly how invested are you in rebuilding the Horde?
From where I stand, it doesn’t seem like much at all.
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My guess, only to the point where she can ensure the Horde and its playerbase is involved in her need for NE resolution and RPPvP. Because in both the cases of the “NE’s getting their shots in” AND “Supporting PvP on a story level”, you cannot functionally do either without the Horde’s participation.
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Which begs the question, exactly how invested are you in rebuilding the Horde?
Anyone who plays both factions can be invested in rebuilding the Horde. I’ve noticed you intentionally skirted redeem for some reason.
There aren’t many people invested in REEEEEbuilding the Horde though, which is what this thread is.
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Never stated otherwise.
You’re right. Not many want to “REEEEEbuild” the Horde. A lot of the REEEEEing has been Alliance posters legitimately upset that Horde players would dare think about ways of fixing the Horde without considering the Alliance (oh, the horror).
There are plenty who are interested in rebuilding the Horde however.
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Hennyways, someone in the wowpedia discord brought up this interview (note: Afrasiabi left)
Afrasiabi: We consider the faction divide foundational to Warcraft since [its real-time strategy] times. As we kind of look at the equity we have in certain fiction, this is the one that’s at the top of the list. We’ve danced around it for so many expansions now that we feel like it’s time to pay it off.
Now, there’s some of the story that you haven’t seen yet, of course. Actually there’s quite a lot of the story you haven’t seen yet. Over the next months, more of that will come to light.
As we’re talking about things like enemies, we’ve fought everything. We’ve fought everything under the sun and then some. We’ve gone to other planets, other universes, you name it.
I’ve got this group of gods and this group of gods that will never get over their differences between the humans and the Forsaken, the orcs and humans. Never. The Night Elves and the trolls. The Night Elves and the Tauren. I mean, there’s so many different racial divides that have melted away into the background, but they’re still there. For those races, those things are still there.
How much land have the Night Elves taken from the Tauren, from the trolls? These are the things we want to settle, and that’s what I think this expansion is about. Now, of course we’ll see other things come into the foreground as we adventure through this, because certainly there are forces in this universe that want the outcome of this. So we’ll see. That’s the TL;DR version.
So at the start of BFA, Afrasiabi said we were supposed to see:
- Humans vs Forsaken
- Orcs vs Human
- Night Elves vs Trolls
- Night Elves vs Tauren
Instead we got:
- Orcs vs Human
- Night Elf vs Forsaken
And we datamined but never got:
- Ghostlands warfront
- Barrens warfront
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This entire thread was stolen, and opens/was created with from the Horde REEEEing. It also didn’t make it past OP without calling for the Alliance to be racist. If they’re going to be included in the OP, there’s no reason the Alliance aren’t to be considered in other solutions.
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The falsehood at the heart of this thread, your purity test, is that you have to pick and choose where your interests are and that you can’t be interested in solving multiple issues at once. I reject that idea, and have stated instead that solutions must consider all stakeholders.
I will also remind you again, that people on your side were the ones who goaded me into this. That you and your colleagues reacted like this again demonstrates that you were insincere about the call for Night Elf fans to also consider Horde issues. It’s a nearly five-thousand post demonstration about your unwillingness to actually tolerate that. It is a monument to your hypocrisy.
Nah, just the title. The other thread wasn’t about rebuilding the Horde.
And people who propose things that help with rebuilding the Horde get the most consideration. When you have the same 3 Alliance players saying stuff like HORDE NEED TO MAKE UP FOR THEIR ATROCITIES! It does absolutely nothing.
What suggestions have you offered to rebuild the Horde in either thread?
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Oh, I brought up that the Vulpera need a much bigger hand in the rebuild effort then the chance they’ve been given.
HORDE NEED TO MAKE UP FOR THEIR ATROCITIES!
If you’re concerned with redeeming the Horde. Yes. They need to redeem their actions after their atrocities.
Just like your thread about “rebuilding the Horde” (but it wasn’t, really) was rejected.
How does the Horde getting new characters to build its deleted roster involve the Alliance in any way, shape or form?
How does proposing multiple members representing the Horde races in their council involve the Alliance in any way, shape or form?
How does an Alliance player constantly posting stuff like ALLIANCE NEED AN UNEQUIVOCAL WIN AGAINST THE HORDE help rebuild the Horde in any way, shape or form?
People living rent free in your head, I guess.
If you say so…
I’m not losing any sleep over you being upset about it.
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Was this shot down by me or anyone else?
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You don’t really understand what redeem means.
Was this shot down by me or anyone else?
Most likely.
Your entire ideology, right here.
This thread exists because I reject this idea. I don’t believe that you can suggest massive changes to the world without considering or being fair to the other side. It was created because people rightfully asked me where in my earlier proposals did I make things up for the Horde, or why I wasn’t talking about their problems.
Then, as I stated - you comprehensively demonstrated why that objection wasn’t sincere.
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Ok.
Its not a falsehood. Asking how exactly you are invested in the issue of Rebuilding/Redeeming the Horde when the topic is on how to Rebuild/Redeem the Horde is not a Purity Test. And while it is perfectly possible to address multiple issues at once, it is also very possible to undermine the attempts to address one issue (Issue A), with your methods of addressing another issue/issues (Issue B and C). Which multiple people on here have told you your PvP scenario risks doing; and threatens to actually hurt attempts to redeem/rebuild the Horde faction in your pursuit of getting resolution for the NEs and supporting RP-PVP. So again … not a purity test. Its people rightly calling out that you might have conflicting agendas, rather than complimentary ones.
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The only conflict here is Alliance/Night Elf issues versus Horde issues - one that you’ve been ruthless in seizing upon on. That conversation is a negotiation - we each have to give up things in order to get what we want, and we each have to be willing to give the other side something of what they want. That is how rational, adult human beings resolve issues.
That is not what I have encountered here. Rather than the objections I spoke of before being an invitation to create scenarios that work for everyone and that address more than one playerbase’s set of issues, I was met with what is, yes, a purity test. In your case: after you were called out for assuming things about proposals that were not in the actual proposals, you admitted to not reading them, objecting on the basis that it dealt with Night Elf issues too despite that I spent most of my time asking and considering how the Horde experience could be enjoyable - and then you questioned my motives.
This is not sincere argumentation, this is looking for any reason possible to deny your negotiating partner anything.
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Your hypocrisy is insane. Why is it that your “solutions” are perfectly fine disregarding the opposite faction, but act like Kyalin’s “solutions” prioritizing Night elves over the Horde is some obscenity?
Gantrithor: “At no point in any of your ramblings did it seem like you were interested in anything if it didn’t involve Night Elves in some way, shape or form.” (Translation: Why don’t you care about the Horde players perspective? It’s not fair!)
Also Gantrithor: “Horde don’t need to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Alliance, either its characters or players. The Horde owes the Alliance nothing. The Horde needs to decide for itself what it is and if the Alliance (characters or players) doesn’t like it they can pound sand.” (Translation: F the Alliance players perspective, they don’t matter!)
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And this 
Is your first post in this thread.
If this thread (and your assumptions about its premise) bothers you so much why didn’t you just continue espousing your suggestions to “rebuild the Horde” in your thread?
If the basis for this thread’s existence is so wrong in your opinion, why are there more Horde issues being identified and discussed compared to your thread?
And, again, how do any of my suggestions for rebuilding the Horde take anything away from or harm the Alliance?
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