Never played sub until this expan well because OMGWTFOP but I’m not feeling it. Of course I can just respec and find out for myself but I prob can’t play until the weekend so I thought I’d ask my fellow rogues for opinions.
So?
Sin dmg is probably 15-20% behind subtlety, has no Burst dmg if you compare to Sub, energy regen feels bad because we lost that Essence, and with the addition of SnD to the rotation, it’s now clunky and feels somewhat wrong when compared to previous iterations of the spec.
11 Likes
Assassination also lacks a very consistent cleave for Mythic+ and raiding, on single target it should be OK.
3 Likes
It’s not ok on single target as well.
According to sims, Sin is 15% behind Outlaw in Single target and 17% behind Sub in Single Target.
4 Likes
Just a fun little thing that I found on that Simcraft, Sin spends 17.78% of the time waiting for Energy to regen. Feels about right.
2 Likes
So it’s poop 
It all depends on what are your plans for the near future:
Do you intend to participate in raid / mythic+ / PvP seriously or more casually? Cause I can tell you leveling is quite fine, not the horror story most posters will tell you. It is rough once you reach 60 and finish the Covenant stories, but then again, this usually happens with Mut, so… the usual?
preach my dude, preach
By design, tho they may un-nerf it in 9.2 or something like that.
Its just bad right now because it takes forever to dot everything up with low haste and energy regen. once sin gets more geared it will be a lot better. This always happens at the beginning of expansions.
2 Likes
There are situations where we deal less damage then the tank.
Azerite traits and corruptions were acting as as bandage for the spec and shadowlands basically ripped that bandage off, handed us slice and dice (which has never worked well with Assassination going back multiple expansions) and kicked us through the shadowlands portal as we’re bleeding out.
10 Likes
I have been an avid Sin player… I like the flow of the maintaining of slice and dice and procs from blindside… but at the end of the day when I am doing it all well it is lackluster.
I switched to sub and just on a training dummy perfecting the opening for Sub I was seeing about a 25-33% increase in single target damage in the first minute or so of rotation.
The issue is that Sin needs too much time to ramp up and when it plateaus it is still way under what other rogue specs and a lot of other specs can do.
One I will say is that I think Sin will scale steadily, but unsure of how the others will do. The other side is that I don’t think Sin has strong identity among the rogue specs in what they do. They are stuck behind the wall of what happens when they can combo point dump and the only option is just to Envenom spam which is not panning out.
Simply number tuning can treat this symptom, but I think more drastic changes will be needed to secure the spec throughout the expansion. I can clearly see where Sin can takeover a competitive spot in Single Target but unless bigger changes happen in multi target they will fall short.
My idea is that to secure holding their own in single tuning but stay competitive in multi target Exsanguinate should turn into a cooldown that is based off a finisher rather than a single target.
If Exsanguinate was a cooldown that was based off combo points spent you could spread bleeds with Subterfuge to start a fight then pop it and use Crimson Tempest to apply that to AoE bleed tick.
Most ideal would be for Subterfuge to apply a Rupture of the appropriate amount of damage empowered garrote achieves. That way you open with apply garrotes/ruptures, pop Exsanguinate and then Crimson Tempested to make those bleeds tick to compete with the AoE of Sub. This would also remove the mini game of not replacing an empowered Garrote, which completely voids the idea of Pandemic DoT applications.
This would fill out the fantasy that Sin focuses on bleeds/poisons while giving them a way to turn that into burst.
The most radical thought is to make Poison Bomb into a spender that replaces Envenom. Envenom back in the day was an ability that you didn’t want to spam, just did layered in to keep the buff as close to 100% uptime as possible. That playstyle worked back then but it was slow.
It does not really fit now though, keeping up SnD and Ruptures does consume a good deal of Combo Points, but in moments you will still reach moments of energy caps and at some point you will feel the necessity of spending on an ability that really does not hit that hard because you have no other options.
TLDR - Sin needs a way to make their efforts of spreading bleeds feel impactful and spending them purely on Envenom can’t meet that expectation. They need a way to turn that effort into something that matters.
5 Likes
This is a beautifully accurate metaphor.
It’s not bad; it’s just not outlaw/sub
Outlaw always starts out good then falls under Sin when haste levels get higher later in the expac. Sub always stays that middle of the road guy that looks good until you mess with it and realize you need a degree to figure it out.
Once upon a time sub used to be the hardest spec in the game. It hasn’t been that way for a VERY long time.
1 Like
Think of sin like affli lock. When you get more stats and mobs start living longer to get the full effect of your dot damage they might even out. And yes I know affi is way better then sin its just an example.
2 Likes
No it’s definitely bad and feels bad to play.
1 Like
Not terrible, stack haste and mastery and it feels fine. It will be better later on
1 Like
Bring Cut to the chase back