Didnt quote the whole thing, but I agree with ya, and I’ll elaborate a bit.
I suspect discord premade indeed did start the trend 100% without a doubt, I just haven’t been part of one yet, and maybe it was actually needed for the alliance to get it in their heads that they can win if they fight harder? For a while now the AV horde have gotten soft, and it was only a matter of time before someone figured it out.
I suspect that the trend presently continues even without discord because of the perception that every alliance is in Discord and that is causing the horde to give up at the first sign of resistance with the whole “it’s a premade” and so half the team stops trying… that right there is crippling.
Not everyone actually gives up, I don’t, but I see enough who basically become useless soon as they aren’t universally winning any more, and that attitude creates the toxic atmosphere I have experienced horde side.
But these are only my experience so far, thing change in this game and often fast so it’s going to be interesting and I see how the horde meta changes to adapt and I already see signs of it.
I see the same “it’s a premade” in AB and WSG even when it’s not on both factions, and it’s frustrating because it made waiting in any que no matter how short or how long entirely a waste of time.
Up until very recently the alliance would only see a spike in wins during the AV holiday thanks to a combination of better alliance players coming out to do AV and not as good horde players being enticed by the lowered queue times the holiday offered (due to the influx of alliance).
Before blizz took away 40 man premades in AV, once horde queues started going upwards of 30 minutes, that was all it took for horde pugs to grow a pair and start turning away the sweatiest of alliance premades.
Horde queues are the lowest theyve been since AV was reintroduced into Classic and so youre seeing holiday like results without the holiday. If horde queues went back up to an hour lets say, you would see a shift in win rates once again.
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I just looked at the premade discord on my phone since it’s the weekend and there were well over 500 players in the disc.
They have around 22 AV channels for games, plus que channels.
It’s just massive.
I was on last night and did a few games. I work weekends tho.
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I know some horde are complaining but if it werent for the 10-20 min queue times horde side my horde rogues would probably never be logged again. I did a couple of games on my last horde toon that isnt exalted and while they were both losses (one was a really good game vs a premade tho) I had a blast. AV was fun again as horde since it wasnt a complete face roll.
I think that faceroll is what Classic players actually want, they don’t want an actual challenge but just to show up and collect their participation trophies.
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The mental gymnastics used to justify a broken map is beyond me.
The stats and facts are there on why it’s imbalanced, it’s been documented, in TBC they pull back the cave position. Blizzard knew there a problem from the get go.
The fact it takes a premade to beat a horde pug speaks to the map issue. A pug vrs a pug on AV leads to a 95% win rate for one side because of the map imbalances. Using premades winning as an excuse to justify the map isn’t imbalanced is idiotic.
Premades of people with good gear, fast mounts and on voice chat should beat pugs yet premades do not have 100% win rates. The map bails out the horde pugs sometimes.
If you’re Horde stop the excuses, it’s lame. WSG/AB are near dead even but AV is a 95% loss because Zug zug “LacK O SkiLz Durrr” has to be the dumbest crap I’ve ever heard.
Y’all are like the people defending billionaire rich people from the evil pleb investors because they’re beating you at your own game and your constant winning left you complacent and weak.
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It gets old refuting this. Explain why they moved back the cave in TBC please. In detail. I can. Can you? I have done so in other threads.
This has also been refuted. Repeatedly. It doesn’t require a premade to beat a pug. The tide has been turning toward Alliance wins for a while now. But you know that right? You have been keeping up on the trends within the BG for a while right? Nah. You are just here parroting the same trash talking points others have made.
Straight up. The map is imbalanced. It is a 60/40 imbalance. It is not due to the Horde cave location. It is due to Horde rezzing at the cave instead of at FWGY when they lose IBGY. There are other aspects that are trash as well (druid summoning position, Treesus being stupid, choke behind SHGY), but the respawn structure is 100% the biggest issue and interestingly enough the most easily altered.
And I am sure some of you will get on here and blow up with “yadda yadda not 60/40.” Stuff it. It is 60/40. There were a multitude of other player driven issues affecting Alliance that drove the larger losing percentage. The fact that the win % has completely flipped in 2 weeks is not due to “premades being everywhere.” They aren’t making up 11 games worth of players. They flat out aren’t. The difference is that a higher level of Alliance are queuing up for AV (finally). Now they are trashing Horde pugs even when it is pug on pug. Same map imbalance. But hey, keep telling yourselves the 95% loss rate was “map imbalance” while your pugs mop up Horde pugs for the next couple of months.
The same reason it’s an issue now, having a 20 man rez as the fallback for IBGY is a huge advantage.
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Nope. It is not the same reason now. The fact that I have already explained this to you and you come back with this idiocy shows you clearly don’t retain facts.
Edit: and I am purposefully not explaining it ATM because I want to know if Tuskadero knows why. Not holding my breath since his initial post clearly shows complete and utter ignorance regarding TBC AV.
Edit 2: And now that I think about your response, it is even more flabbergasting. TBC has reinforcements. If Horde rez 20 at the cave and Alliance took IBGY, the Alliance are going to win via reinforcements anyway because they got Galv. You really don’t know what you are talking about with TBC either. Maybe you should stop posting as well.
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Alliance fortunes in AV started to change a couple of months ago when most of them realized that SF was actually a good idea like we said a year ago. It took a spawn fix to make it viable as it wasnt always the best move before then but alliance pugs eventually figured it out via osmosis in the weeks following.
Cubby is still a garbage strat imo but it taught the alliance that they can achieve more if they really worked together and eventually took that mentality to SF and other parts of the game (back capping, buffing etc) and it worked out so it didnt get immediately abandoned.
Even before the whole alliance premade explosion games were infinitely better and the premades just reinforce what good teams look like and how they should operate. The map doesnt give a crap about who that is, it awards the correct team 100% of the time.
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The alliance can ABSOLUTELY win if they want. There is no map difference or pvp racial that overcomes just pure trying hard to win. Believe me…as a warrior I have my butt handed to me over and over and over and over…by your hunters and mage…and warriors…
your rogues too…stunning me while above killed me…your healers too…while your above killed me.
Anyway…there will always be salt in these discussions… . but no doubt Alliance can deal out the damage. So can the Horde.
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Noone has ever said that an alliance team that is 2x or more better than a horde team won’t win. That’s not how pugging works though.
your players are showing up expecting to lose and dont try. even good players can be disheartened and not try. so this has nothing to do with whether it is a pug or map design. I have yet to see this on horde side incidentally…in this new ‘meta’. most are trying to get the best out of what they can considering the situation. level 51’s aside of course. as is the case for your faction im sure.
It would be a real bummer if you were trying so hard all the time but had 10-20% of your team not caring or even trying, even afking. I’m not saying any faction is doing that but if that is the case for you there is no fault of your own in this. It would suck is all.
Players getting in discord to coordinate queues and be in voice comms in a single match is still cheating by the way. plain and simple. Intentionally used the word “Players” in the first word of this paragraph. It’s not a faction issue. And yes I think it means WSG and AB. But it is 10X more devastating in a BG like Alterac Valley. 10X more devasating.
Map design has everything to do with whether players will try or not.
Players who come to win are generally not players who will play at an obvious disadvantage, look at how fast horde gave up when alliance started premading.