Hope Remains

Honestly, I hope you’re right.

I hope that Tyrande’s vengeance takes her on a course to become the absolute boogieman to Sylvie and Nate’s machinations. That she hunts them down … and then goes back to her people. On the other hand, Liadrin isn’t the ONLY character Tyrande’s story arc mirrors from “The Fall of Quel’Thalas”. Her story ALSO mirrors Kael’s (and like it or not, that bodes ill).

I have this horrible feeling that while Tyrande will NOT get Villain batted like Kael (at least not permanently, as I said … she’s also the Liadrin of this story), I do feel like she’s going to step on some sort of landmine (and one that may cost the NEs greatly).

1 Like

I’m not sure how much clearer I can make “Night Elves don’t need this right now.”

4 Likes

Oh, I don’t want it … I just can’t shake this itch in the back of my skull that anyone who’s following in Kael’s footsteps in a narrative riddled with “FoQT” parallels is cruising for something bad to happen. And, again, she’s ALSO the Liadrin of this tale, and the Anastarian of the story (Malf) survived the event (which could certainly make a difference) … but will it be enough to offset the Kael in her?

I guess we’ll see … I DO however expect SOME focus on the NEs and Forsaken Racial Narratives in 8.3 (and no, I did not expect any such thing in 8.2.5).

Blizzard don’t care what Night Elves need, haven’t you realized that by now? See: their entire history in WoW and some of WC3.

1 Like

Unless the appearance of failure is all part of the larger plan…

Azshara I could see but slyvanas is another story. Idk what she is now, and I doubt anyone does, but she isn’t a banshee anymore. I’m not sure what the limits of her powers are but I imagine that in the same way malfurion was the first of his kind slyvanas is the first of her’s.

Tyrande wanting to stop Sylvanas is not being portrayed as a bad thing. Everyone is trying to stop Sylvanas. Wanting to work out Horde/Alliance relations from here isn’t being portrayed as a bad thing. Everyone is kind of doing that, and the dust still hasn’t even settled outside the gates of Orgrimmar. I don’t think anyone is being treated as evil for wanting Night Elves and Forsaken to have a home either.

So no, wanting to stop Sylvanas and get things worked out is not why she’s going to be in the wrong.

It’s being implied that the overwhelming power of the Night Warrior will drive her and other Night Elves to go beyond just stopping Sylvanas and peaceful negotiations with the Horde to resettle the Night Elves.

1 Like

Hence why I said the Horde can come, too. Give Tyrande and Malfurion an out to not want to attack the rest of the Horde any more.

Tell me something, why do you think the Night Elves should forgive the Horde?

2 Likes

Forgive? I don’t think they don’t need to forgive. Harboring resentment or negative feelings, especially this close to the event, is understandable. Not just understandable. It’s good. It shows you have a heart.

If, however, that inability to forgiveness means that they turn to spilling the blood of anyone they deem guilty (directly or by association) until they stop feeling wronged about Teldrassil, then I do believe that’s wrong.

That’s how you end up with a never-ending cycle of bloodhsed. Peoples’ lives are not currency and most attempts at trying to trade “theirs” for “ours” often end with hurt people taking out their hurt on lots of innocent people, while the guilty parties still manage to get off the hook. It’s not about actually accomplishing goals. It’s about trying to get through the hurt.

Right now there exists a viable option for the relocation of Night Elves that would not require any more bloodshed. The Horde and Alliance have agreed to lay down their weapons and sue for peace, so terms are going to be written up. Meanwhile, the process to hold those responsible or loyal is also in it’s beginning stages.

The warring parties have agreed to lay down arms and work things out. Knowing this, but continuing to fight/kill before this more peaceful process can be worked out is not a good idea.

In short, it’s the difference between justice and vengeance.

Which isn’t to say that I have no sympathy for the Night Elves and their plight. I actually find it interesting that Blizzard has included this little wrinkle in the story. But no, I don’t think it gives them a moral blank check in order to enact whatever vengeance they see fit.

1 Like

The Horde has it too easy.

They will continue their mass killings until someone does it unto them as they have done to others.

What you talk about doesn’t make sense. The Horde doesn’t function normally, there is something inherently wrong with them and with the “loyalists” still within the Horde the sickness remains.

Logically and realistically speaking this “”""“thrilling”"""" conclusion did nothing but kick the can down the path.

2 Likes

Say in your hypothetical scenario nobody but Sylvanas gets held responsible for Teldrassil, what then? Do you still consider justice served?

Then let them do something horrible in their vengeance and when they cross a line, why not force the horde to forgive them to break the cycle, then?.

4 Likes

Well for one thing we’ve already held others responsible. In the narrative, Saurfang- who led the attack on Teldrassil and was the only Horde leader other than Sylvanas and Nathanos present- has admitted to it, fought against Sylvanas and her supporters, and died. Sylvanas and Nathanos are both considered enemies of the Horde and Alliance as well, who’re working to stop them. And there continue to be discovered loyalists being led through the streets of Orgrimmar in chains right now- heading off to an unknown fate.

So the idea that Sylvanas and only Sylvanas will be the one who suffers any repercussions is already a mistaken one.

Are they going to get everyone who should be held accountable? No. Are they more likely to get the ones they’re after while avoiding excessive bloodshed compared to if they just killed everyone so much as suspected as being related to it? Yeah.

But I do believe that Elven territory taken from them during the war should be returned, and the Horde should help in finding a place to relocate the survivors. If that doesn’t happen at all, then yeah, we have grounds now to return to war.

“Justice served” is unfortunately more of an ideal than anything concrete that can be universally attained. However it’s pursuit generally results in a more functional system than the pursuit of vengeance.

1 Like

I have absolutely no issue with this.

In fact, I’m pretty sure that if they do go down this vengeance route that it’s all going to be pinned on the supernatural influence of Night Warrior and not Tyrande herself. Anything she does while under its influence is going to be forgiven in the narrative, if not by all the major characters.

But before she gets to be forgiven, she is going to have to play along with the villain. Just like in order for the Horde to be forgiven, they likewise had to play the part of villain.

EDIT: Just to reiterate/clarify… I’m not against Blizzard doing a story where Tyrande goes buck wild and wracks up a big Horde body count. Even takes out another city or two. I would not even be angry if they did it.

However, from my understanding of how Blizzard has handled this kind of stuff, I don’t think they’re going to glorify it. I think she’ll have to play the role, however brief, of antagonist to both Horde and Alliance. She won’t be a hero. And I would think it kind of skeevy if they did do it that way.

2 Likes

The failing predates WoW though. And I feel like that may be part of the point.

Arguably being told she keeps failing over, and over, and over again isn’t just encapsulating the events of WoW, let alone just her plans in BfA. It thematically hearkens not only to Lordaeron and Teldrassil, or failing to enslave Eyir, or failing to kill Arthas herself, but all the way back to the root of her own loss and despair, when she led a doomed fighting retreat against the Scourge. As sad as it is, while she may have managed to infuriate Arthas with the delays she and her Rangers caused, ultimately there was no hope of victory for her. Events outside her control - namely the betrayal of Dar’khan and resultant collapse of Silvermoon’s magical defenses - had already doomed the high elves, and so she was never actually in a position to legitimately end the advance of the undead and prevent the fall of Quel’thalas or her own death. So she was forced to fight and retreat, fight and retreat, in a grinding spiral toward the inevitable end once there was nowhere left to retreat to. Failure, after failure, after failure, without hope of success.

Hence her repeatedly flipping out whenever she’s told she can’t kill hope. It just doesn’t compute for Sylvanas. The very idea of hope is anathema to her, because for Sylvanas, hope was killed in the forests of Quel’thalas the very day she died and came back as a puppet of the Scourge, and there was nothing she could do about it.

Which is likely why she’s so hung up on denying hope, while other Forsaken still cling to it. Sylvanas was the Ranger-General of Silvermoon. She was supposed to save herself and her people. It was her entire identity and purpose. And when that was supposed to matter most, it didn’t. Her skill and experience and position meant nothing. Through no fault of her own, she failed, and failed hard, and countless people - including herself - suffered, died, and then continued suffering because of it. Most of the Scourge’s victims were just regular people who had no expectation of being able to prevent themselves from suffering such a fate, but Sylvanas’ failure, death and subsequent torment was a rebuke of everything she thought she was supposed to be.

It doesn’t make her good, or after what she’s done since even sympathetic at this point, but it does provide a rationale for how she could see the world so differently from even the other Forsaken, despising the very idea of hope while so many of them still desperately hang onto it. Since becoming free they grab onto every tiny improvement as grounds for hoping to improve even more, while she sees every failure along the way as further reaffirmation of her own conviction that there’s really no hope for her or anyone else.

It’s a warped sort of irony, because she believes there’s no hope for anyone, when until only just now she was the source of hope in the minds and hearts of her own Forsaken.

2 Likes

I would seem even the Night Elves might only hold Sylvanas accountable, as the youtuber Bellular referenced Night Elf troops NPC discussions that I have not seen yet personally:

    I cannot say that I am eager to fight alongside the Horde... Not after Teldrassil.

    That was the Banshee’s doing. We all want her to answer for it.
    And then what? Peace?
    We can worry about that if we live.

That dialogue makes it clear that they are unsure if peace is going to follow in the wake of Sylvanas’ defeat. If they believed Sylvanas to be the sole cause of all the ills and that she’s the only obstacle for peace, why question if stopping her will end it? Also, these are those elves who decided to come fight alongside the Horde. Those are the ones most willing to work alongside some Horde despite all that’s happened.

Tyrande and a sizable contingent refused and seemingly continue to fight in Northern Kalimdor while hunting down Sylvanas and Nathanos on their own terms.

It is still a presentation of Night Elves acknowledging that it was Sylvanas’ doing.

It was her doing. And Saurufang’s. And several other Horde members. That’s why the elf is not eager to fight alongside the Horde, even if it’s against Sylvanas. Because they still have feelings about the Horde in regards to Teldrassil. And when asked if there will really be peace after Sylvanas is defeated, the other elf can’t even bring themselves to say yes.