Honestly, it's pointless to advocate for queueing with other players in the age of followers

[Akston-area-52]

Sure. But every time he does that I just run around for a few seconds and he comes back.

On my first ?? win he died like 2-3 times.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Tiffany-ravencrest

would happen at the level the player was capable of doing themselves if they were playing the bot’s spec.

How is blizz supposed to calculate that? 10 players at the same ilevel with the same amount of normal dungeons run could easily finish with 10 different interrupt totals for various factors.

[Tiffany-ravencrest]

@Akston-area-52

Which means the player gets hard carried?

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

If bots aren’t going to fail important tasks, they will carry the player

Right now in Follower Dungeons if the player has asked the tank to lead and the player falls behind the tanks stops and waits for you. Something similar could be done.

Stats could be collected on the player as to what they were and were not doing and the followers could be adjusted dynamically to play at the same level. It’s AI but it’s not difficult AI.

In fact information could be given to the player to explain what happened and why which would make it a learning experience.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

Contributed to some of my wipes.

Had to cheese it with pvp trinket.

[Akston-area-52]

@Tiffany-ravencrest

Right now in Follower Dungeons if the player has asked the tank to lead and the player falls behind the tanks stops and waits for you. Something similar could be done.

So you slowly get carried?

Still carried, just takes a little longer.

@Tiffany-ravencrest

Stats could be collected on the player as to what they were and were not doing and the followers could be adjusted dynamically to play at the same level. It’s AI but it’s not difficult AI.

So an AI learning, that is unique to every character in WoW. To try to make the AIs match the ability of the player?

Yeah.

Thats not a feasible solution.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Akston-area-52

Could you imagine failing a run due to pure RNG of bots?

I might be less upset knowing it was programmed to periodically fail than having the other tank in LFR refuse to taunt and kill me 3 times.

[Sumwun-tichondrius]

Didn’t the shell of Bioware just come out with a single player game where you do all these things?

Seriously, I’m asking. I didn’t read it.

[Akston-area-52]

For accuracy it would fail at the same rate.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

Bots should perform at the level of the last 5 keys (successful or not) in the key system.

So if a player dies to x avoidable, the bot will die at some point.

And that means bots will fail interrupts, and tanks will randomly die.

[Sarama-firetree]

Acceptable if it happens Leroy Jenkins style

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

Bots should perform at the level of the last 5 keys (successful or not) in the key system.

So if a player dies to x avoidable, the bot will die at some point.

And that means bots will fail interrupts, and tanks will randomly die.

So you just need 5 sould runs for guaranteed carries? The boost market just skyrocketed!

[Tiffany-ravencrest]

@Akston-area-52

So an AI learning, that is unique to every character in WoW. To try to make the AIs match the ability of the player?

This is pretty simple AI learning. It just involves counting which any Programmer 101 course teaches you how to do.

Take interrupts for example. If the player uses the interrupt 25% as often as a good player would use it then the bots use the interrupt 25% as often as well.

This is not rocket science. In any computer language you can count with a statement like

• X = X + 1; -or- in a Pascal like language
• X := X + 1; -or in a C based language
• X++;

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Tiffany-ravencrest

This is pretty simple AI learning. It just involves counting which any Programmer 101 course teaches you how to do.

Take interrupts for example. If the player uses the interrupt 25% as often as a good player would use it then the bots use the interrupt 25% as often as well.

Ok but interrupting as often as you can and interrupting well / properly are two very different things. Not to mention how much of being good at using CC is coordinating (Either directly or implicitly) with the other players in the group.

WoW is a game who’s group content derives its difficulty from coordination and shared responsibility.

Replacing players with NPCs takes away both the ability to communicate and the ability to share responsibility.

[Kneeshooter-amanthul (Kneeshooter)]

@Zaxxilzikk-area-52

I want to run them with followers.

I’d agree with that idea if Follower npcs were designed to behave as randomly as human beings do. The higher the content, the more random they get. You still dont have to bother with abusive players, being kicked for no reason, etc. They will stick with you to the end and you don’t have to say a word. But in as many ways as is possible to design an AI, they match player performance.

If they could do that, I’d agree with your version of the game.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Tiffany-ravencrest

as often as a good player

How good is the good player model? What kind of groups are they running with? Pally tank + Rsham? BrM & Hpriest? Groups that kick everything or just the big ones?

There’s significant variables to account for, not just a simple “ZugZug the fury warrior interrupts 5 things a run on average.”

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

@Sarama-firetree

So you just need 5 sould runs for guaranteed carries? The boost market just skyrocketed!

More like 5 previous runs in the region… and if the last 4 groups depleted, and 1 group succeeded, you will fail. (Unless you can carry.)

That creates a sense of randomness.

[Akston-area-52]

@Tiffany-ravencrest

Take interrupts for example. If the player uses the interrupt 25% as often as a good player would use it then the bots use the interrupt 25% as often as well.

How does the bot know how often a good player does?

What if you are a priest?

The best priests interrupt 0 times.

Bots will now no longer interrupt ever?

[Sarama-firetree]

@Fauxstrasza-stormrage

More like 5 previous runs in the region… and if the last 4 groups depleted, and 1 group succeeded, you will fai

Well… that’s something. The threads about terrible players not even in your group causing NPCs to ruin your run would be awesome.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

And if the tank left the group in those runs, it might just leave it in yours too.

[Greganardo-wyrmrest-accord]

You guys need to take a step back and realize how crazy it is to ask for the multiplayer portion of an MMO to be automated out.

You’re never going to perfectly recreate what playing with other players is like. The followers are going to always be either better or worse.

Delves are your solo play option, and they’re pretty extensive. Why do you need M+ to be solo content too?

[Tiffany-ravencrest]

@Hpellipsis-whisperwind

Ok but interrupting as often as you can and interrupting well / properly are two very different things. Not to mention how much of being good at using CC is coordinating (Either directly or implicitly) with the other players in the group.

Thanks for giving me more evidence that this is a good idea. What you are basically saying is that the bots won’t be able to carry the player without really good AI, the player will be carrying them.