I just remembered that unholy nova exists and they could bring that back renamed for Archon.
Should we be scared of that possibility?
Scared?
I don’t think so?
Unholy Nova is a solid ability as far as the button + effect goes.
I’m sure that could be used to bridge the gap and add more onto it if that was the direction taken.
Is it the best option? I would be shocked if it was as that is pretty uninspiring but perhaps it doesn’t need to be anything fancy.
If I had to choose between Unholy Nova and Power Infusion, then the choice is clear, Unholy Nova has a lot more room for design and interaction to be built into it imo.
The only issue I see is that it adds another button and I think all 3 specs are pretty taxed on individual buttons/spells already that need to be managed.
Perhaps it could replace Holy Nova, but then that requires a forced talent point in Holy Nova which doesn’t have to be a bad thing?
I’m on the fence with it really. It has the potential to be good for sure.
Unholy Nova itself was pretty lackluster. The only good thing about it was the Legendary that spawned the undead mage that scaled with PI. On most trash pulls the trash would be dead before Unholy Nova even ticked its full duration.
Also, the goal of Hero Talents isn’t to add buttons, but to replace an existing one with something else. Given Shadows limited pool of non-talented optional buttons it’s very likely going to be something involving Devouring Plague or Mind Blast IMHO.
If they want to bring damage to Holy then bring back Boon of the Ascended imho. That ability was amazing for M+ because you nuked out all your damage in the first 10s, healed the group with each cast, and it had a 1-2 minute cd. Way more fun and interesting than Empyrean Blaze which still has no unique animation, vfx, or sound.
Even then having a hero talent tree just focused on damage would be kinda lame for those Priest healers who just wanna heal. So very likely Archon is going to be a healer tree and Oracle will be support.
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Dark Ranger is adding back an old but in this case a new button ability in Black Arrow.
Also Paladin Lightsmith adds what appears to be like Priest Angelic Feather in that it’s something you place on the ground. So that is a new button as well.
Might be more but it’s enough to see that it’s a mix between replacing and adding new buttons in these Hero Path Talent Trees.
One thing I can be as confident as I possibly can is that Archon will have both healing and damage aspects. Enough of both that Shadow will have its damage and Holy will have its healing and perhaps a mix/cross for both.
There is a zero chance they will make Archon just healing or just damage focused. Otherwise it will alienate the other spec sharing Archon outright.
So not sure what it will end up looking like, but it should be a viable option for both Holy and Shadow.
If I am wrong and it’s complete crap and not worth taking at all for one spec or the other then that is a massive failure of the devs and I would be shocked even with my low expectations that I already have as is lol.
One thing to take into consideration is there’s going to be class overhauls come the alpha/beta and the new hero abilities that look like new buttons might end up replacing something being added.
One thing I think needs to happen is the base class/spec trees need to be addressed and updated.
But my fear is that if that happens, it might happen only after the hero paths are added which then constrict the level of changes the base trees are allowed to have.
I dunno… when it comes to Priest and Specifically Shadow, I see so many things in both class and spec tree that need and SHOULD be addressed / changed / updated that can have a severe impact on the Hero Path Talent Trees.
I don’t understand why they’re even adding hero talents in the first place. We don’t need a third talent tree.
They can just add 1-2 rows to the existing talent trees. We’d get 5 new points in each tree as we level up 71-80.
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When gaining an additional 10 talents going into Burning Crusade, it caused some (although minor) interesting combinations if you don’t spend those extra talent points down in your primary tree.
This happened again going into Wrath of the Lich King.
But going into Cataclysm, since they didn’t add more lateral direction talents, it would have upset the balance of having an additional 5 points that can be used in other trees.
They prevented this unbalanced mess by restructuring the talents to be more streamlined and require less point investment but at the cost of reducing the point accumulation to 1 every 2 levels instead of every level. Then they also forced you to invest 31 points into a single tree to prevent freely cross pollination as you were able to do in the prior 3 versions.
I suspect them adding this additional talent tree that grants you points to spend which is disconnected from the main talent trees is to once again prevent crazy misbalanced issues from popping up as just adding 5 more points in each tree could cause some class/specs to have a severe amount of power shift as there is a high likelihood that any new talents they add to any tree could be very weak and forgotten talents and as such the points would best be spend on what we have currently today but you just get more of it.
I don’t know if that is THE reason for the Hero Path talents, but I’m sure it was a factor in that the goal was to add more without causing massive reworks across the board to change and move things around in order to prevent wild overpowered combinations.
I see it like a mix between Artifact Weapon talent tree with the choice node technology in that you will get everything with some tiny choice variety. With this, it makes it a lot easier to balance while still granting the player the feeling of getting more power going into the next expansion.
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I understand the whole button bloat thing because by WOTLK the talent trees were ginormous and it was mainly just cookie cutter builds. Hero talents to me though feel more like borrowed power because what are they going to do the next expansion? Add a 4th talent tree?
Borrowed implies they will be going away.
I don’t think they will be going away.
I think they will either add horizontally with additional Hero paths for specs to pick or as you mentioned, they will add another separate area to put points into.
I would rather they go the route of adding more of a Hero Path selection so instead of just having 2 now, we get 3 then 4 etc.
I think each Hero Path can add unique flavor by changing how spells work slightly to create different builds and ways to play (Not unlike some things we see them experimenting with in Classic Season of Discovery).
I think by doing that, you should be in a position to simply NOT use some of your spells and abilities as you can use others more often and/or some are just more powerful than others.
This would both reduce bloat and retain different playstyles for a wide variety of peoples preferred playstyles.
I have mentioned this before and I have been inspired by some idea in a game I like to play which is Darkest Dungeon 2.
In Darkest Dungeon 2, each hero comes with a default path and 3 additional paths that change the way abilities work or add a general “aura” that makes you do X differently.
I think of those different path choices as similar to the Hero Paths that will be coming for TWW. But then later on, more path options become available and perhaps those path options wont be a mesh between 2 specs but be specific for a single spec. So you would have 2 Paths that are a mix between 2 specs and then a 3rd spec that really changes up what your spells do and how they function and the priority of them and even some that just wont ever be used.
So for example, talking about the Healing aspect of Priest. In Darkest Dungeon 2, you have the Vestal hero and you can choose which path you want to be for the Vestal. Some paths make it ideal to be melee and front rank while another is a mix of support and another is a backline super healer.
Below I put together a brief synopsis on the different paths you can play a Vestal as.
I can see similar slight tweaks and modifications done to spells and abilities or general Auras to push your spec into a more specialized state.
A good example of this is adding a specific Path for Holy to make it a true Holy Caster DPS spec. The aura can reduce healing done by 50% or more and increase damage done by 50% or more or whatever the correct numbers need to be for balancing. Then you can have a specific tree in the Hero Path section dedicated to either change or offer new spells and abilities to function completely different to really change you into a ranged Holy caster DPS.
Vestal (Darkest Dungeon 2)
- Wanderer
- Path Specialization: Default Path.
- Path Aura: Gain Conviction Token each round.
- Confessor
- Path Specialization: Rank-flexible role that specializes in debuffs and token removal.
- Path Aura: Gain Conviction Token each round + increased debuff chance.
- Chaplain
- Path Specialization: Rank-flexible role focused on party defense.
- Path Aura: Gain Conviction Token when hit + Increased Stun & Movement resist per conviction token.
- Seraph
- Path Specialization: Back rank support role that specializes in Consecrations.
- Path Aura: Gain Conviction token When a Consecration Activates + Consecration lasts longer.
Note:
There are specific ability changes that really alter how an ability works. But I did not include that level of detail because it would not make much sense to anyone not familiar with the game as the reader would be lacking context.
But you can see the links for yourself if your curious how many changes each path does to its abilities.
These specific ability changes is something I can see fitting into WoW that are not just a talent that adds onto an ability as we see now but instead changes the ability to be mechanically different.
One example I can think of off the top of my head is making Mind Spike rip dots away again but add back more damage.
This was a good read. OP I 100% would love that. I asked for a similar thing because maybe I want to have a little flair of RP with my priest and don’t want to have to dip into the void but still want to dps. That type of overhaul is apparently unlikely, but I would love it. The only suggestion I saw was just glyphs to make Shadow’s stuff look holy-esque.
As for Hero Talents, they don’t have to have an exact spell in common, just maybe a spell that serves a similar purpose. For 5)3 Mage Frostfire subclass they don’t share any spell, but they have them a shared spell to replace a base/frequently used spell (Frostfire bolt replaced Frostbolt & Fireball in each spec).
So for Archon that could be Smite & Mind Spike/Flay or Holy Fire & Mind Blast. Both are baseline with usage & CDs. I don’t think there’s many/any other base spells between the two with similar usage & CD. So I could see them adding so utility to those like adding a debuff that heals people that hit the target. I’d imagine that would be the route to build diversity to Shadow since their other choice will probably be damage focused. And Holy will have the choice of being more healing focused with utility and buffs through Oracle, or attempt to be more Disc-like in Archon.
There are a lot of shared spells/talents in the spec tree but I think they tend to pick talents that are already baseline (someone correct me if I’m wrong, did exactly 3s of research). And I think the only notable untalented shared spells are PI, flash heal, and shield? I don’t see them using flash heal or shield, and PI has already been done. But if they redo Oracle I wouldn’t mind Archon converting PI into a self-focused buff that’s tuned to the priest specifically and not other classes 
. And then it could do something like increase haste/primary stat and cause damaging abilities to heal for a % and healing abilities to damage for a %.
I’d be good with either option assuming they’re developed, implemented, and tuned well. But someone point out any glaring flaws. I’m enjoying the theory crafting 
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So I don’t think we need to focus on exact same spell shared between specs or even similar spells like Mind Blast and Holy Fire as yes they both have a cast time, a cooldown and deal damage so it is a good spell to use as a merged new spell similar to FrostFire Bolt replacing Frost Bolt and fire Ball. But the thing to keep in mind is that Holy is a healer and Shadow is a DPS. Meaning having Holy Fire being a central core spell for Archon to revolve around is not going to satisfy most Holy players as it just becomes another form of Discipline in dealing damage to heal instead of healing outright.
Having said that…
I just repost my ideas for how yo manage/merge Holy and Shadow spells for Archon that I posted in the Oracle thread already.
I have really 2 versions of ideas. They are mainly just raw ideas and are not to be thought of as a complete tree but instead as a concept / possible direction Archon can go in.
Version #1
Holy/Shadow (Archon)
- Psionic Storm (Archon Keystone)
[Replaces Holy Word: Sanctify] (Holy)
[Replaces Shadow Crash] (Shadow)
Create a Psionic Storm at the targeted location for 10 seconds. While in a storm, enemies take damage every 0.5 seconds, increasing by 20% for each consecutive instance of damage, up to 400%. - Psionic Link
Your single target spells damage and healing is replicated to every target within Psionic Storm. - Psionic Surge (Archon Capstone)
Targets within your Psionic Storm take 10% increased damage and healing from your spells every second, up to 100% - Psionic Energy
- Holy: Healing done from your Holy Word spells generate a stack of Psionic Energy. Reaching 20 stacks fill you with power and causing you to erupt, dealing pulse healing to your allies within 20 yards every second for 3 seconds.
- Shadow: Damage dealt by your Shadow Word spells generate a stack of Psionic Energy. Reaching 20 stacks causes the next target to receive damage from your Mind Spells to erupt, dealing pulsing damage to every enemy within 20 yards every second for 3 seconds.
- Psionic Power
When Psionic Energy erupts, your Psychic Link damage and healing increases by 5% for 30 seconds. Stacking up to 3. - Psionic Force
Psionic Energy pulse deals 100% more damage and healing with each consecutive pulse.
Holy (Archon)
- Psychic Link
Your single target Holy Word spells heal 25% of the healing done to targets affected by your Renew within 40 yards. - Psionic Focus
Gaining a stack of Psionic Power increases the healing of your single target healing spells and reduces the mana cost by 10% per stack.
Version #2
Archon
Dot/Hot
- Psionic Word: Disintegrate
[Holy: Replaces Renew][Shadow: Replaces Shadow Word: Pain]
A word of pure energy that heals your ally or damages your enemy over 15 sec.
Your Psionic Blast causes each target affected by Psionic Word: Disintegrate to burst the healing and damage done to every target within 5 yrds.
Direct damage/healing
- Psionic Blast
[Holy: Replaces Holy Fire][Shadow: Replaces Mind Blast]
Blasts the target with Psionic Energy that heals your ally or damages your enemy and causing additional healing and damage to the target for 50% of the remaining amount of Psionic Word: Disintegrate. - Psionic Word: Onslaught
[Replaces Shadow Word: Death]
A word of pure energy that inflicts damage to your target. If your target is not killed by Psionic Word: Onslaught, you take backlash damage equal to 8% of your maximum health.
[Damage increased by 250% to targets below 50% health.]
[Damage increased by 150% to targets below 20% health.]
Psionic Word: Onslaught deals its full damage regardless of the enemies current health while they are within your Psionic Storm. - Psionic Spark
Your Psionic Blast and Psionic Word: Onslaught conjure Sparks of Power for every target afflicted with Psionic Word: Disintegrate and float towards them, dealing healing to allies and damage to enemies upon impact.
AOE
- Psionic Storm
[Holy: Replaces Holy Word: Sanctify][Shadow: Replaces Shadow Crash]
Place a Psionic Storm at a targeted location for 10 seconds.
20% of all your Psionic healing and damage done is replicated and reversed causing your damage done to heal your allies and your healing done to damage your enemies. - Psionic Escalation
Psionic Storm lasts an additional 5 seconds and deals 20% increasingly more damage and healing every 1 second to targets remaining in the storm.
(Choice) - Psionic Entanglement
Afflict or refresh targets with Psionic Word: Disintegrate when they are healed or damaged from Psionic Storm.
Utility
- Psychic Shield
When Psionic Word: Onslaught deals damage, that damage is combined and converged into a shield on you that absorbs incoming damage for 6 seconds. - Purifying Storm
Your Dispel Magic dispels 1 beneficial magic effect from all enemies caught within your Psionic Storm.
(Choice) - Purifying Power
Your Dispel Magic dispels 1 additional beneficial magic effect when the target is afflicted with Psionic Word: Disintegrate.
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Yea playing off StarCraft High Templar/Archon unit abilities would be such a cool crossover hero talent setup. Even copying Tassadar from HoTs, w/ Lance and Psi Storm. Just makem holy themed.
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Do we though?
Is that actually necessary?
I think the aesthetic seen with the Kyrian Boon of the Ascended is once again an uncanny similarity of the Archon / High Templar spell/power aesthetic from StarCraft 2
StarCraft 2 Archon
Having a Holy theme is out of place on Shadow
Having a Shadow theme is out of place on Holy
Having a Psionic theme that is light blue and lightning effects can work for both and it has already been established to an extent with Kyrian and Boon of the Ascended. Boon of the Ascended was a mess from a mechanical standpoint since you needed to be in melee range for AOE DPS (Bad for Shadow) but was fine for Holy since it could heal allies in the back.
But again, that also mimics the Archon from SC2 as it dealt splash damage when it attacked but since it was basically melee, it was only effective in melee. So just change / alter the effect to work from range in a seamless manner and you have a lot going for it.
Who knows, maybe we can finally get the classic wow shadowform look via glyph and in addition can get this Archon light blue with lightning effects look with a glyph as well if they went this direction.
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Those both sound really cool, I’d be on board. I think I like Version 2 the best, but probably because it had more words.
I crafted Version #2 after Oracle talents were introduced.
Version #1 came from my initial concept as a blend / middle ground between Holy Specific talents and Shadow Specific talents as I thought there would literally be talents that have holy only and shadow only aspects.
Source of version #1 found here + other Shadow only talent concepts I crafted and lots of suggestions of changes to Shadows base tree to shore up many issues I have with it.
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Would love to see boon come back, but I don’t think it will:(