I posted the reply twice, lul.
This forum is so obsolete to use…
1 Like
Oh you’ve been keeping track? Haha thank you brother man! I definitely feel like I’ve hit a wall though, at least in city, I know eleeseme did it on a 16, but even the 14 I did felt insanely lucky 
I like herald for its potential (controlled, not based on crit) throughput power, but I hate it’s mana and the two minute wings cooldown SUCKS. I hate how much consideration awakening takes as herald compared to lightsmith.
Tempered in battle is probably the most helpful ability in the game but it’s sorta hard to see exactly when it saves someone life or not
2 Likes
Shout out to you two being here. You both are a shining example of warriors of the light, looking forward to looking at your feedback to improve our spec design in the near future.
Tempered in battle is great, no other healer has something like it and Bulwark is a really good external as well. Shame both are kinded tied to casts CDR or to Judgment CDR with double CS in AC in windows. But yeah, sometime it just, saves someone you were expecting, sometimes it doesn’t. Nice addition and fun, but unreliable half of the times.
I’m afraid this will be the case too yeah. Lots of drinking coming soon, which is according to many folks in the hpal discord a non issue since you can drink, but is never fun to anyone in the party…
1 Like
Yeah, I’ve not really liked Holy since they added the melee thing.
That, and both our baseline heals are like wet noodles.
1 Like
The melee thing? You talking about crusader? Honestly it shouldn’t be a version of wings. It should replace virtue.
2 Likes
Now that I remember, disc priest attonements are 30% stronger out of raid.
Wish Hpal had some differentiation like this.
For example, Devo/AM being stronger or weaker in raid vs m+ (which is something they kinda touched upon on beta with other healers abilities at one point like Tranq, Emerald Communion or Revival). And by this I mean even nerfing them in raid if neccesary since they have been huge balancing problems before.
In the same way with the Dawnlight changes, what if Virtue/beacons were slighty weaker ONLY on raid since you,can get 5 targets with Virtue? Same with AC transfer on raid? ( or the other way around, them being slightly stronger on m+).
I know this is not solving anything because main issue is how watered down holy shock and spenders feel, but a fix like this reducing overall HPS in raid from passive effects like beacons/dawnlights/ac etc + single target buffs could go a long in m+.
A weaker version of beacons in raid only would decrease HPS (among other changes in this same fashion) but since you are making ST stronger it can be close to a net HPS neutral change and still feeling good to play and more control about your healing and moving bars. And would benefit us greatly in m+ and how the class feels in 5 man environments
Light of the martyr increases holy shock by 45% and it still feels like it does nothing when the buff is active.
I definitely agree that mythic Plus and raid need to be tuned separately.
I think it was back in early dragon flight where our builders were weak and spenders were strong, then people complained and now we’re in a spot where there are nearly equal in strength. It really sucks that rising sunlight and a fully buff stacked crit holy light are the only spells that heal noticably more than other spells in the kit. (Hammer and anvil doesn’t count since you can rely on it. Stupid making the most powerful heal we have happen through crit)
Back to your original point, aura mastery is trash in mythic Plus. I think devo aura also significantly negatively affects us. While %3 Dr conceptually sounds nice, if we removed that and got a 3% healing boost we would still be trash. Devo and AM are disproportionally negatively affecting us
3 Likes
It would be nice if they bring back Aura of Sacrifice tbh.
Many of the issues we have currently can be solved by a spell that they removed 4 years ago. Isn’t this the top quality of sarcasm eh?
Also, we don’t get forced out from group when other two specs are over performing, since we can’t switch to ret aura now.
1 Like
Actually I agree here with you, but all the hpal mythic raiders would complain losing Devo AND AM. Those abilities have guaranteed Hpal spot in high end raiding for years, even when Hpal itself was F tier for amirdrassil back in DF. (Which honestly, just shows how big of an issue it is).
I do remember early DF Hpal, and while now the spec has more QoL integrated into its kit/design, back then our spenders actually healed for something. Virtue + DT would top your party in 2 globals, now you need at least 4 since like you said, rising sunlight is one of our few buttons that actually move bars. It’s awful.
Back then we also were tankier, and we had 1 min sac like ret and prot have and better mana consumption.
Also, since we are losing 10% HS healing and up to 32% WoG healing soon, this issue will only be worse next season.
I was not playing back when this was a thing, but remember the auto sac bug the first few days of 11.0.5 and was fun af.
It is really just exhausting having to constantly yo yo every patch. I’ve actually started playing more XIV again because, even after half a year of not playing, it’s comforting to know both AST and SGE still play the same way.
Blizzard really just needs to finally decide how they want Holy to play and how they want the spells to work and change them all to fit that.
I’m tired of a kit that is designed to heal people very quickly be tuned to not do that, and when it does, gets nerfed until it can’t and entire playstyle has to change.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it more, why the hell is this spec designed so counter productively? I mean we know why as I mentioned earlier they took a spec designed for a very simple task and tried to beat it into a different shape.
But like…why do they keep kicking the can down the road with these kinds of short term changes instead of just changing all our spells to fit whatever actual design they want for us. They are pigeonholing themselves trying to keep stupid spells and talents that simply do not work in the game they have designed at this point.
Why is the only real interaction between our two “staple” healing spells Infusion of Light? Something we cannot control?
Why do they continue to try and fail to make Martyr a thing? The only time I feel it actually ever really worked was when it was Seal of the Martyr for ret. Since then they’ve kept trying to shove it into Holy, balance things around it and then it simply does not and will never work because they will never balance the entire kit around the mechanic.
1 Like
Devo is fine, since that’s just the paladin class buff. If AM is a problem, they should change/remove AM and give Holy a different raid cooldown more in line with all the other healers’ raid cooldowns.
What would your suggestions be
For Holy, Devo is not.
When a ret or prot can bring the same utility as we do, then why people bother taking us? Not to mention in DF, one of the reason for us being the worst healer is because of devo. We are losing 3% damage aura when grouping with ret, which back then, ret is the best spec to replace AUG, and it’s a class with large player base. A damage buff usually can be measured as saving 20-30 seconds of clear time in M+. In high keys, this time difference is huge.
AM? This spell is a joke, it provides 8.74% damage reduction to the party with 3 mins cooldown. I can recall as many times as possible that I got one shot inside Divine protection and AM. Even in df, I have to switch to barrier of faith, and cycle through Rage heart and Beacon(another shield trinket) to keep myself alive in Nokhud and Hall of infusion. I also stacked 18% leech to heal through 17 tyran Khajin, and devs murdered the stats again, cuz they don’t want us to “overstack it”.
We need some adjustment to our kit. The Aura of Sac thing I mentioned above, that’s the concrete change we need. Make the transfer value scales with distance just like mastery does, unlike the old version. It fits in our kit, since it functions like a permanent Virtue. If devs really want to push the concept of a, “Sacrificial, Selfless savior of light”, this is the way. Not keep bringing us talents like Martyr, the only combination that gives us 6% net loss in throughput. What class has this kind of nonsense in their kit?
Devo for Paladin is like Mark of the Wild for Druid. Why bother taking a Resto Druid if Feral and Balance and Guardian all have MotW? Ideally, because the class has inherent kit and balancing that functions at the upper levels of play. Bringing a spec solely because they are the only source of a buff you like (Aura Mastery) in the game is bad design.
I agree that Blizz should lean more heavily into the ideas of Sacrifice as a core Paladin mechanic.
I guess I don’t really know. When we’re talking big damage reduction cooldowns, Disc Priest and Death Knight and Demon Hunter all have to put theirs down in a targeted area and people have to stack inside it. Prot Paladins used to have a talent where people would stack behind them when they raised their shield and get protection, that might be something that could be used. I just hate hearing “This spec will always be brought even if they’re trash because of one button they can press every 3 minutes.” It puts us in a place where blizz might feel like they don’t even have to fix us, because their metrics keep telling them there’s always a holy paladin in the raid.
I’d honestly argue for a more drastic change, and either split the primary auras lock them into specs or simply changing Aura Mastery to not interact with Auras at all so everything can actually be balanced without the constant worry of “why not just bring a different spec for Devo”.
I also don’t really want to lean more into Sacrificing. Mainly because I cannot see it balanced in any way that will make it fun. If the fundamental idea was we take damage to precent other people from taking damage, then maybe since in theory we’d only have to seriously heal one or 2 people.
But Blizzard would never balance our abilities for that, so instead in a situation where 3 people are hit, we’d have to work double time to heal 4 (the 3 people hit, and ourselves) likely very slowly and stupidly.
4 Likes
The sacrificing ourselves thing, as you just described, would make us learn even more into AOE healing. Our class should lean into single target healing much harder. It fills a very nice niche considering every other healer seems to be far better equipped for AOE in different ways
I wouldn’t mind leaning harder into Single Target healing again, but as noted before the game just isn’t designed around that anymore.
Unless we are able to go back to properly healing 1 person, but healing them very quickly, our groups will never survive any form of content where there’s constant group damage.
As someone else suggested the concept of sacrifice,
So currently tempered in battle plays into a more AOE healing style, I wonder if something similar in terms of transferring health, could play into single target healing.
Something like, redirecting ally damage to yourself, converting it into a dot, sorta like monk stagger, with ways to clear or heal off with single target heals. There’s so many ways this could be made to work
There are certainly a lot of ways it could work.
I just don’t think Blizzard has the ability to make it work in the game environment they are designing.
As an example, sacrificing the Paladin’s health to heal the group sounds like a great idea if the aoe event only happens once, because then the group will be healed and the paladin can work on patching themselves up.
But what if it’s ticking rot damage, or multiple dungeon packs casting aoes multiple times? Then does the paladin just kill themselves healing everyone back to full? Is the paladin playing perma catchup, spamming heals on themselves and doing nothing else to keep up with the massive group damage they alone are shouldering?
1 Like
In my Opinion, we should have Talents that let us Make our WoG jump at less effective
Holy Light if they want us make us cast it. Then spread it more than 8% of our talent, Like the interaction we had with Cromie in Dawn of the Infinites we just press holy light and we can spread AoE healing.
Virtue is our AoE window. but honestly unless we don’t have an Empower WoG doesn’t move bars a lot.
In terms of AM I am okay losing AM as long we can have passive DR that we activate with WoG or Holy Shock, that is something I liked from Glimmer of light that we could add DR to our glimmers. at this point of identity is not healing, is reducing damage taken. so Leans toward that give us some type of pain impression that is not weak like BoS.