Nice change, but this should apply to all key levels. Rating is useless as a tool to gauge player skill for applying to key levels otherwise.
This is actually an interesting idea. I could have a lot of fun playing M+ in this style. A big bonus here is, “Oh man, we just missed that timer… let’s run it again and use what we learned to improve!” Instead of how it is now where we have to go run several other keys until we can try again, which puts a lot of cognitive distance between practice sessions.
I don’t buy, or sell, carries… so why do I need to be punished because other people do? If buying/selling runs is undesirable, maybe go after that instead.
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Who said anything about being punished for not buying or selling carries?
You did, when you implied that we can’t have what would be a positive change for the player base in how M+ key selection works because people would buy carries.
You just think it’s a positive change because you are not willing to look past how it would personally benefit you.
I specifically meant carried, bought or otherwise. Most carries happen unintentionally.
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It would benefit a lot of people. Folks who run keys because they enjoy the progression would not feel negatively impacted. Do you think it’s a positive thing for you and your group that, if you fail a key, you don’t get to try again? Do you think it’s a positive thing that if you need one more dungeon, you have to wait for RNJesus to bless you with the key?
Your chief complaint (that you wrote, anyway) is that we couldn’t have something like this because people could more easily inflate their rating beyond what they would normally be able to achieve by specifically targeting keys. Never mind the fact that people who want to buy their rating actually have a much easier time of getting the keys they need already, why should other people’s rating and how they got it have any impact on how the system should be designed?
I’m not in direct competition with these people, I don’t care what rating they have and what rewards they get. If it’s undesirable that they purchase it (which I agree that it is), find another way to discourage it instead of dismissing what could actually be a very positive change for the legit key running community.
You specifically called out buy in your post. If you meant just “get carried” though, no worries… but again, so what? Does it matter? That happens now, so how would a key you can select be any different?
I’ve said it multiple times. It’s part of progression. You win some and you lose some. I’d be fine with keys having limited charges before depleting, but I am completely against a system where keys never deplete.
People would have inflated score, but that wasn’t even the chief complaint. People who get carried, doesn’t matter how, are now able to infinitely run that key level while being no where near ready for it. They will continuously drag down pugs who join thinking the group leader is competent only to find out otherwise. This will continue to happen until another group is able to carry that person yet again.
The other issue that I said would be group leaders will begin to kick players out at the first sign of distress so they can bring someone else in and “restart” as many times as they want. This will create a more toxic pug environment where groups are even more incentivized to bailing a run because there literally is no consequence.
I said buy “or get”. It’s fine if you misunderstood that.
Edit: I didn’t even get into how people would spam “+20 no leavers” for max end-of-dungeon drops and Vault rewards. This would completely diminish the entire purpose of restructuring the reward system.
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You still lose. Not timing the key is no different here. Not being able to time the key is also no different here. You still have to do the full run, you just have the capability to try again while working to improve the level you’re at. I don’t really have anything against your charge proposal either to be honest, and it could also merge smoothly with Robokappa’s.
You walk into a dungeon and can select the key level, but the font only has three charges. The font gains a new charge every four hours of elapsed game time and every time you complete a dungeon, every other dungeon’s font gains a half-charge.
This isn’t really much different than now. Under the rules you’ve proposed for this scenario, people are getting carried, intentionally or otherwise. I think that’s maybe a narrow-minded view because what you’re saying is, not all PuGs are created equally… which is a very obvious statement. Someone might join a pug who is much stronger and experienced than they are, bumping their +15 key to a +18. They then list that +18 and get a less experienced group, bringing it down to a +17. At this point you’re thinking, “Good, their key got depleted, they can’t just try again.” but you’re forgetting that PuGs are random. They could just have easily gotten another strong pug that brought their key up even further, or they could do that +17 with a strong pug and end up with an even higher key.
The bottom line is, you can’t predict what’s going to happen with a PuG and so quit worrying about scenarios that are well outside your control. Just let people play the game.
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Slogging through a key for over an hour versus getting it done within the time limit are not the same thing. It’s ridiculous that you are even saying there’s no difference.
No.
It is entirely different. Yes people are already in key levels they are not ready for, but at least in the current system many of them get brought back down. In the new system people only go up. That’s a major issue that you cannot see because you are only focused on how it can benefit you.
What happens in raids when someone underperforms? They get kicked and someone else is brought in.
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Adding this separately since you got a reply in there during my edit 
Stop worrying about the rewards that other people get. It just doesn’t matter at this point. Rewards are skewed now anyway. Inside of a month, the scenario you’re intent on preventing is going to be happening with the system we have now as people try to fill out their vault with the best loot. If you have an issue with the rewards structure of the game, address that instead.
We should be focusing on how to make the M+ system fun and how it can support the players. Not how it must be because people could do this or that. This was my original point. I play the game legit. I don’t buy or sell carries. I like to push myself towards a rating goal that I set for myself and work towards it. Why should I have to have a more frustrating time of this because of a whole bunch of other people who in no way have an impact on my gameplay? If there is undesirable behaviours going on, address those, but don’t do so at my expense.
It does matter or else they wouldn’t have restructured the entire M+ system. Again, you are only focused on how things benefit you.
I highly doubt that. This isn’t SL with trivial 15s.
In the context of failing the key? If you don’t time the key now, you don’t progress. If you can select your key, if you don’t time it, you don’t progress. It’s the same.
Thank you for your thoughtful response to me attempting to find common ground, lol.
You can’t predict that, it’s a PuG, it could very easily go either way. So why bother trying to enforce your will on it and just let people play the game. This literally has no impact on you but you feel the need to decide for everybody else. You need to let it go man, worry about your own fun.
We’ll see
Which means they shouldn’t be able to continuously run that key level over and over again just because they got carried into it one time.
You assume I am interested in common ground to begin with.
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But… so what if they can? That doesn’t really have an impact on me, and it doesn’t have an impact on you, and it really doesn’t have a tangible impact on the current situation. In your scenario where everybody is getting carried, even if they fail a key, they’re just going to get boosted on the next one.
Just let people play the game.
I feel like without key depletion there will be a massive shortage of lower keys as the weeks go by.
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Woah hold on, so I have over 2400 right now and i’ve only been doing 18’s and 19’s, does that mean my rating is going to drop below 2400? This post is kind of confusing cause it just says only keys not timed above 20.
It diminishes player’s efforts. People who work to progress versus those who got carried and now have a key they can run unlimited times until they get carried again.
In your scenario of changes:
- Someone gets carried into a +20SBG.
- That person now has access to all dungeons +20 through Torghast style fonts.
- They begin to spam run every dungeon at +20 while getting carried in them
That’s completely skipping progression.
No, you will be unaffected.
Interesting and fair point. It’s not my original idea, but I like where it’s headed. Any thoughts on this, @Robokappa?
For myself, I’m not sure, but I’m not sure it would change much. Even though keys deplete now, they still trend upwards because as the season progresses and people gear up, it gets harder and harder to fail lower keys. Yet people still join low keys, even when they’re vastly over-geared for them.
I noticed this a lot in 9.2 and 9.3 when working on alts. I’d constantly get carries and have my key boosted, but I’d drop it lower because I knew I wasn’t geared enough for that. I think it’s because people just want fast runs for valor. Mind you, valor was uncapped in those seasons.
So perhaps that’s the solution across the board? Uncapped valor gives people incentive to run lower keys. Valor is capped now, but keys are new enough that they should be diverse. I wonder how that will look later on in the season and, whether or not Blizz plans to uncap valor again.
So this is just meant to bring down the people who are just completing 20s and up without timing them?
I’m not sure how I feel about that. Seems like people will just leave keys rather than complete them. I mean at 21+ yea that’s probably fine cause at that point it’s not the gear you’re doing it for. But at the 20 level some people still just want to complete those for gear but I guess if you specify at the start it should be fine right?
Yes, it’s to counter the inflated score that untimed keys provide. I think they are seeing the downsides to the changes they made to this season compared to SL, but it’s too late in the season to make that change to all key levels.
From the OP, +20 should still remain the same. It’s +21 an above.
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