Hey devs, you guys really need to reconsider Holy's incoming changes

Classes Paladin
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I was editing these under another post, and I decided to create a new one. :slight_smile:

The reason why the new changes feels so off is that -
Currently, Holy have only 2 playstyles, Herald Shock build, and AC Judgement build. The first build heavily relies on Haste and the successor relies on Crit only, to a point where AC build can completely drop down beacon of virtue in the most situation, because virtue needs around 30% haste to become fairly effective. The devs had already murdered the herald shock build tho, due to “they want the class to consider Mana as a recourse”…

However, both of these builds DO NOT CAST AT ALL, Even with divine favor! Since we don’t have enough talent points to spare on Tower of radiance, and one holy power to us is around 400k effective healing on average. So the new changes don’t fit in our kit at all!

Then what about taking ToR?
It’s still a net loss… That’s because Holy light has a 2 second casting time on default with 0% haste, which is 33% longer than our global cooldown. Since our golobals are completely filled, hpc (healing per cast) wise, or the opportunity cost if you prefer the nerdy approach, and considering holy infusion in effect, A empowered Holy Light, does less healing than a JUDGEMENT with truth prevails! In fact, many of the top logs in raid even dropping Divine Favor for Protection of Tyr because of this reason. Not to mention that with Crusader’s Might taken, the build guarantees that, every holy infusion procs will be consumed on Judgement and not a single stack will be wasted. In addition to this, with higher crit you have, you can have similar outcome without talenting into Inflorescence.

How the changes actually affect Hpals in the next patch?
They buffed this inefficient spell by 15%, ONLY with Inflorescence taken, and the statement would still be the same. It does less heal than a Judgement!
Holy light currently contributes about 4% of our total healing profile in both builds, and the major contributor for LS AC, Hammer and anvil (9-12%) got nerfed by 20%, AC (16%) got nerfed by 40%. So that’s a negative 9% in return of a 0.6% gain…

“Just cast Holy light a lot, lul?”
You are gonna run out of mana in 40 seconds, idiot.

What about using Flash of light instead?
This build works, but only with Veneration taken in LS and it requires massive amount of crit. Switching to normal wing and taking Divine guidance instead. Using herald forces us to use Beacon of Faith because of mana issues. In addition, we are required to hard cast as many FoL as possible in melee ranges, meanwhile spamming crusader strikes and all other offensive hp generators. Just like what we did in dragon flight, but this time we don’t have the bonus 5 yards melee range. This is the only solution we have now, and it’s really stupid…

This is my last passion for playing this shoddy spec with no real developers for years.
Have a good night gamers, and thanks for your time reading my rant :smiley:
Dropping out.

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I’m with you. The insane amount of effort it takes to succeed is unreal.
I’m making a Monk so I can have two healers next patch since hpal is so worthless. I am timing tens at 607ish on the monk. Yes the experience on the hpal helps but the fact my throughput is enough without optimizing or researching yet shines a light on the dramatic difference between hpal and other classes.

More empirically, raider io has plenty enough data to show why hpal is numerically trash.

I don’t know how many times holy paladins need to explain why the current class design is trash and the endless quantity of suggestions that would improve the class.

Sure it may only be a small few still willing to advocate for changes, but even Ellesmere has quit hpal. That’s bad news

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Here’s another record for the empirical data argument: https://mythicstats.com/period/990.

Not a single Holy Paladin in the top 2000 keys done last week. All other weeks we’re sitting at single digits. Even Holy Priest who have a gigga meta spec option, are more represented :dracthyr_crylaugh:

It’s fine though. A nerf to the current build and a buff to Holy Light will fix it… right… RiGht?

Sure it may only be a small few still willing to advocate for changes, but even Ellesmere has quit hpal. That’s bad news

Yep and Growl on his podcast said that Ellesmere’s tweet was only a couple of lines so it can’t be bad. :dracthyr_yay_animated:

:angry:

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Growl needs to shut his fat mouth. Not saying much is not a good sign, it means no one cares anyone because of how bad the class has been for so long.

Holy light and flash of light need to burn and die already. I’m sick of new, and nostalgic (from over ten years) players talk about “caster paladin”

I’m tired of how insanely fast holy paladins get nerfed. Heck even if our play style was fixed (all the issues have been explained endlessly) I would accept that, but buffs only exist when the class spends at least an entire season in the afterlife

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Funny thing is, when I was checking the raw numbers of MW. I found out a single cast of jade fire stomp heals more than our divine toll. With considering the mastery procs of JFS and effective healing of holy power.

To see Ellesmere quitting hpal actually let me made the decision of quitting M+ pushing about 2 month ago. Our design is so flawed, that they focused too much on modelling and averaging numbers during and out of Virtue window.
The long lasting problem is, we are forced to take virtue for how insane AOE damage scales in high level keys, but Virtue actually brings lower throughput than Faith in the most of cases.

When taking virtue:

  1. If we can’t top up the group during the Virtue window, WE ARE SCREWED.
  2. If the Virtue is offsyncing the incoming damage event, WE ARE ALSO SCREWED.
    a. If someone accidentally taking avoidable damage, we are forced to burn virtue. Which leads to offsyncing.
    b. If the AOE damage event is signed around the Integer multiples of 10, OFC it offsyncs, learn maths.

Unfortunately, both of these scenarios happens a lot in current season. An effective example, which is the second and last boss from DB. Yeah this is a fairly easy dungeon for many other healers, but surely not for us. BECAUSE, virtue only have one stack, and the dungeon is designed in the way mentioned in 2b, it has so many events that are 20 secs. Unlike disc priests, they can choose to burn a stack of Radiance to have 2 more shots of Penance for damage. Hpal? If the targets need to be healed is more than one, we have to burn virtue. This makes us have literally zero margin of error to compensate for teammates’ misplay.

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Along the same lines, healing the last boss of City is just UNREAL. Splice into slam over and over

Yea I am upset with pushing as well. I am incredibly stubborn and I like the ambiguity of our range, and general full instant cast playstyle, but on top of the design issues, we are also numerically lacking.

I failed a 15 dawn by TWO seconds! Because someone didn’t run out with the web. I need to manage my cool downs perfectly for the acid spray so of course I have no juice in the caboose for literally any mistakes.

It feels really crappy to

  1. Play perfectly
  2. Still feel like I’m doing nothing because of our tuning
  3. Have no viable solutions to help if a mistake is made

By the way my dude, I’m still playing hpal next season, but ALSO monk (so I can use which ever ends up better for my team) but I’d love to add you in game or discord, since we’re around the same skill level, id love to be able to reach out to you for ideas if I’m having trouble in a dungeon/boss. Would you be down?

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  1. Outside of Virtue periods you lose the 28% free healing Faith provides and so to do the same effective healing you need to spend more globals and mana.
  2. Virtue costs 125k mana.

∴ It costs more mana outside of Virtue and a lot to cast Virtue. :thinking:

Man I hate Virtue so much but you just have to take it to meet the required AOE healing.

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I would understand these issues existing if it wasn’t for the fact that our single target heals just don’t be healing.
But every other healer just gets aoe without such negatives

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Would you be down?

Oh for sure!
I posted bnet link on my io page, feel free to add me, and I’ll send you discord friend request through dm :smiley:

Happy new year gents!

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I am so happy I am not the only one struggling with my holy paladin. I am new to the game, no MDI team player but I do research and play my class to the best of my abilites and still get out healed and out dps by priest and monk even evoker healers. I have been kicked out of groups to be replace with healers with lower item levels than me, just because I as a hpal which hurts ngl.