seems like every tree combo should boost Incarnation form. It’s the best way to incorporate different abilities into a temporary form. You could incarn into the shared tree shape as either a secondary CD or transform the talented one.
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Wut, god no. I want to get away from that talent over keep using it for forever. I don’t like CDs, I actually hate them, very much, and would prefer hero talents not utilizing talents i really hate.
3 Likes
I don’t see how anyone could hate incarnation. It’s literally our class fantasy, and none of them are clunky. They all work very well with our kits. In fact I think they should be baseline, at least for resto druids. I don’t want to have to choose between Convoke/Tree of life.
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Because I hate cooldowns, in general. I wish this game would give you 1 single CD, and that most of it’s power is removed and it’s a small power boost.
I think 90% of a character’s power should come from baseline abilities and talents, not from a CD.
I know people like to go “but then that would be boring” and I’m ok with that. I don’t think there should be long CDs, and I don’t think there should be powerful CDs, either.
This means that the character can’t be powerful outside of a powerful CD which I believe is rubbish. I would take baseline power above a CD every single time and day of the week. That’s why I enjoy non incarn builds. They’re more fun to enjoy.
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You do realize that every MMO in the history of MMO has had cooldowns right?
Like, even Club Penguin had cooldowns.
Most classes and specs do just fine outside of their CDs. Their CDs do exactly what you say and want: quick boost for a short duration.
And boring gameplay is bad game play. The more/sooner you get bored of something, the sooner you quit doing that something.
Youre advocating for WoW to lose its entertainment value and become irrelevant and die off
You do realize that fireworks are pretty up front for a few seconds, then dazzle off, and become useless, right?
It’s only bad for ADHD minded players, which considering how tiktok and other programs keep rotting people’s brains, it’s fair to say that people do have the brain bandwidth of a flea or goldfish, but again that’s a very very bad thing, not a good thing in the slightest.
WoW will never lose its entertainment value, and I’m not advocating for all specs to be like this in the slightest. Variety is key, but there is no variety because every single spec is basically CD dependent. That’s what I’m telling them: stop making every single spec CD dependent, and make a few that don’t use CDs and don’t rely on them, or make other build variants nearly as powerful, like 90% of the value of a CD talented spec so people can play that without being crippled by 90% less power.
No, the more things you have to do in a game and by have to do I mean the more things required of people to do in a game, the more likely they are to move on.
People forget: WoW is a subscription based game and that also if someone’s happy with their WoW experience, then they will stop playing but still remain subbed until the next tier is out where it’s time to do it all over again. Also, how many subscriptions do you cancel when you’re happy with their program/subscription? The answer: nearly 0 unless you’re extremely frugal with your money. The thing is: like 90% of americans don’t watch their subscriptions, they don’t look at what money they can save by canceling things. They don’t look at finances at much of all in the way of subscriptions. Even if they canceled them, though, they’d subscribe back once they had the money or a new tier came around, especially if they canceled on a good note or experience.
No, they don’t. The power of most specs comes in their CDs, then they teter off to less than or close to tank damage while outside of their CDs, it’s just that their CDs are so powerful that when you optimize around said CDs the power is so great that it doesn’t matter about you coming down so much because you’re still so high up, then you go down, then your CD is back up and you rise again.
Their CDs are far too powerful and need to be reduced in power, and then that power needs to be tuned into the spec’s baseline abilities.
Wrong. Boring is boring and boring is bad. No one has ever said “this is so boring, im enjoying this so much”.
Boring is objectively bad.
It does. People leave and take breaks all the time because of it.
Nope, the easier and more simplistic they make the game, the more complaints that come forth.
M+ requires probably the most set up and is most accessible to the entire player base and yet its considered by lots to have saved WoW for different reasons.
When theres less to do, (like lull points and no changes in classes) people get bored (see, another instance of boring = bad). They leave.
Lmao what?! People who are happy willfully pay for things they wont use?
Try again. Ive played WoW consistently since about 2007, but i quit paying when i take my breaks, even when i have 110% intention of returning (and i always do because i enjoy the game)
See above
Wrong again. Its a power increase for a short period of time. If you take that increased damage and separarte it from the rest of the encounter, you’ll see it makes up like 10-15% of overall damage. If that.
Not sure how you consider 10% to be “most”
See above
TL;DR - youre bad at rotation and managements and want the game dumbed down to your level. How about we leave it as it is, so people can aspire to be better if they choose, and you can continue to play at your level and blame the system, yeah?
Convoker noob here!
No, it’s not. Again, this is a Fireworks moment here. Fireworks are fun for a few seconds, then fizzle out. How about a dead or fizzled firework? Is that fun? No?
Well that’s a lie, I say that all the time, though I use the word “I enjoy simplicity” because I do. My life and job are complex and complicated, I don’t care for games to be the same way. Life should be the complex and complicated part, which it is for every person that’s alive.
But then again with everyone watching things like TikTok more and more, our attention spans shorten and we need more fireworks or we aren’t entertained or don’t feel entertained.
It is not objectively bad.
Taking breaks is part of the process or else you 100% burn yourself out, which means you end up leaving anyway, but WoW, itself, doesn’t lose its entertainment value. You lose it, not WoW. The customer is the one that loses that value.
Not at all, you know this game has far more casual players than hardcore players, right?
You know most of those casual players are here just to have fun, kill things or heal people, and enjoy their WoW life, nothing more right?
No, it doesn’t require the most set up at all. Mythic raiding does because it requires exactly 20 people vs Mythic+ having 5. That’s 4 times more people already. Add in the logistics, the strategy, planning, etc. that all happen with Mythic raiding, plus the amount of pull, hours it takes, etc. And guess what? Most people don’t care to do it anymore. Gasp!
“Ain’t nobody got time for that” when a key is done in 30 minutes, but a raid is done in 3 hours, having more time invested into that, more patience being required vs a key, more knowledge than a key, better requirement of skills than a key, etc. Everything about raiding is far far harder than a key, yet there’s way more people doing keys.
Raiding also has a weekly lockout, too, compared to keys giving you(the group) rewards every single time you complete it.
They don’t leave after the first time clearing things outside of world 1000 guilds going on break until the next progression season. Most people leave after completing the same content the 4th, 5th or higher time.
Yes, do you know why subscription based things are so popular? Because people set it and forget it, literally. Companies all over the US adopted this strategy because they’ve seen reports and had their departments tell them “Yes, subscriptions earn more money over a longer period of time.” They do. How long have you been on this earth?
Cool, you’re amongst some of the few who do. Do you know why many Americans struggle keeping up with finances and why programs like Rocketmoney, etc. are all so popular? Because they find out what your subscriptions are and relay them to you. Again, most people set things up and simply forget about them. The average american that doesn’t use a program or keep track of their finances, literally isn’t going to remember to cancel their sub once they leave unless they’ve had a very very very very bad experience with the game. If they left on good terms with it, like completing an objective, most of them simply stay subscribed until the next season rolls around.
You’re also probably someone who cancels their Hulu or Netflix or whatever company you use to watch shows the moment you’re done with the shows, but again many people don’t cancel their subscriptions. That’s why those programs that find out your subscriptions for you have become so popular. If people did it themselves those programs would not be anywhere close to as big as they are, yet they’re huge in popularity simply because of the amount of money they help you save. They help you save so much by looking at all of your subscriptions and reporting them to you so it shows in your face how much you’re actually spending, etc.
Most americans were never taught how to budget in schools growing up, nor by their parents. That’s why so many of them are simply bad with their money. Americans are quite bad and financially illiterate because they never were taught and didn’t think about any of that stuff so deeply.
Dude, bro, you’re so dumb it’s making my brain hurt with how you operate. Go take a look at every CD, and then look at the power you gain from them compared to not using them. In fact, go do this right now when you read this. Get every one of your DPS specs up and go hit a dummy for however long your cooldown is. By this I mean if you’re, say, on a Balance Druid who has a 30 second Incarn then go hit a dummy for 30 seconds. Do it multiple times, with Incarn up, and without it up. See how much of a difference it makes in your damage because it’s not a “10% at most” kind of thing. It skyrockets your damage, especially with MORE CDs that you pop, like potions, flasks, Hero/Lust/Warp, etc. These are all compounding effects, compounding CDs that add more power to your own CD. Again, this game is literally based in CDs and then you relax and then go back to using your CD then relax.
So you’re very stupid, heard. If that’s what you got from it, I hope you don’t have kids. Failed parent in the making, right here.
Bad analogy is bad. Fireworks are meant to be temporary. For the moment.
Gameplay is not. They are not the same. Good try though. And boring is bad regardless. Firework that does what its intended to do: not bad. Dud firework: Bad.
Simplicity and boring are two entirely different things. While some may contribute simplicity with boring, they are not the same. You enjoy simplicity. You do not enjoy boring. Big difference.
By definition, it is. Your correlation to simplistic is not the same thing, agian.
Yes, it’s been proven time and time again. Even casual people want “harder and better rewarded content”. Not all, but a lot of them.
I enjoy WoW as it is. I do not enjoy the idea of WoW being completely fail safe. People can and do enjoy a non boring version of WoW. You can make the game as simple or as hard as you want it to be. There is no reason to take away the options from people when you can dumb it down as much as you’d like while not affecting other peoples game play.
You’re not understanding the terminology of “set up”.
And how many hours do you think is spent on m+ vs raiding?
This is a strawman. No one ever said anything about leaving after their first clear.
Which is what happens and causes lulls, as I had mentioned.
Because it’s a pay to use and not pay when not using. You can’t seriously be this daft.
Sources please.
Nope. Got a family that uses them so they stick around. I hardly watch TV, but the wife and kids do on a consistent basis.
Compare a run without CD usages. Then compare one that uses CDs. You’re going to tell me that the one with CD’s are going to triple the output of an entire run without CDs? Nah.
They’re short period boosts.
It is. 10% is an exaggeration, sure, but it’s probably not far off. You know what Incarn does for Balance Druids right? You know I’m still entering Eclipses and firing off finishers. Incarn just boosts the damage by a bit by double dipping. But it lasts for 30 seconds.
You’re telling me the increased damage from 10% extra crit, and double dipping mastery for Starsurge and Starfall in 30 seconds is going to dwarf the entire damage of your normal rotation of 3 minutes?
Now mind you, you don’t get to contribute ALL of the damage during the 30 seconds of Incarn to Incarn. Only the bonuses that it adds.
Let’s say I average 300k dps over a course of 3 minutes without using incarn. You’re telling me that 30 seconds of Incarns bonuses is going to equate to more than 27.5 million damage? Because that is what you’re saying by most damage comes from CDs.
Here’s 5 minutes with Incarn
And here’s 5 minutes without Incarn
33k difference. 6.2%
Not sure about you, but 6.2% is a long shot from 50.1% (you know, MOST of the damage).
You’re more than welcome to explain how Incarns 9.9m is most of the overall 126.2 million damage in that 5 minute span. I’m sure you’ve got something that shows me how I’m wrong
You’re arguing with a troll who is only on here to be contrary. Most people ignore him or have him on ignore by this point. You’ll find the forum much cleaner once you ignore the trolls.
While I may not personally agree with you complete on the whole CDs issue, I feel bad for you because you’re only going to get a headache arguing with someone who just exists to argue from a “whatever the opposite of your point” is.
You mean the objectively correct point?
You’re more than welcome to jump in and argue again how a 30 second boost from a CD every 3 minutes contributes more damage than your output from your normal rotation without said CD.
But yet again, you’ve just thrown people who disagree and prove you wrong with actual facts and numbers on ignore…so
CDs are meant to be temporary, for the moment.
If every spec in the game is a firework, there is not as much variety, which means it’s all sparklers and nothing else. That’s bad gameplay and bad design.
Yet they get interchanged so easily and quickly because people think simple is boring and boring is bad. Again, simple specs are more boring to complex specs, but they’re still fun and fine, good too.
No, they want rewards equivalent to what the challenge is. If it’s difficult, then they want high rewards that are very good. If it’s easy then it needs lower rewards.
I agree, what I don’t agree with is every spec having to have a CD. That’s why, like earlier, I was saying a spec with no CD should be doing 85-90% of the damage of a spec with a CD.
That doesn’t exist, nor happen.
Nowhere compared to raiding because Mythic+ setup is actually faster, shorter, and easier due to the fact it’s 5 people’s things vs 20. Literally due to definition of 5 vs 20, it’s already easier.
Let me see if I can post this up:
imgur. com/a/3xfBeVC
Put that together, go look at that screen shot. That’s Incarn vs non, though it’s 38 vs 45ish seconds of Incarn vs non Incarn.
But constantly reoccurring during gameplay. They’re an integral part. It’s not a one and done deal like fireworks.
Not all fireworks are the same, nor do they operate the same, nor do they all offer the same entertainment value. They’re all different and appeal to different people. Which is variety.
But this isn’t universal. That’s the problem. Boring is universal to all. Simplistic is not. Some enjoy simplistic. Others do not. No one enjoys boring as boring is the same to everyone.
You missed the entire point. Even casual players want things that aren’t as simplistic as you’re wanting. So trying to use a demographic to back up your point isn’t going to work. I’m a casual/solo player. I only get a few hours of play time a week. But I definitely do not want the game to be dumbed down to the level you enjoy as I would not enjoy that.
I…i just proved this was wrong. Balance Druid without Incarn will be doing 93.8% of the damage of Balance Druid with Incarn…
This is so disingenuous that this is all i’m going to say about it.
Yeah no lol a 30 second sample isn’t good enough. Nor is it when I can literally just fire off Starfires for 45 seconds without you knowing what was done and take a screenshot as a comparison. I’ll show you a true way to do a comparison:
You literally are missing the entire point but yes, they are 1 and done if the fight is short.
If it’s a 30 second fight, for instance, you’re not getting another CD so yes it is 1 and done there.
Yet the universal thing is every spec has a CD. Again, you cannot optimize out of not having a CD without gimping your damage by far too much. That was the entire point of the post.
Nobody said the entire game, nor every spec. I am asking for a few specs and considering there’s almost 40 specs in this game, they can do with a few that have 0 CDs. Druid is definitely a class where they can do it that way since multiple DPS specs, as are pure DPS classes like Warlocks, Rogues, Hunters. They can all have a single spec with no CDs.
No, you showed on a 3 minute sim where 2.5 minutes you don’t have it. Go do a 30 second simulation where you have it up 100%. In fact, I just showed you a screen shot of me doing it with Incarn up, alone, vs non Incarn.
Also, make sure the sim isn’t using literally anything but Incarn and literally nothing in the other, including trinket procs.
Yes it is, because that’s how long your CD last. The entire point of it was literally showcasing the power of the CD. If you do it for 3 minutes, then that’s most of the time spent outside of a CD meaning your DPS has tanked dramatically compared to the CD.
No, because that doesn’t have you in JUST incarnation, let alone, again it was proving just how big of a different Incarnation itself is. Again, go test this out on a target dummy. 30 second timer because that’s how long Incarnation lasts, so do it 2 times: the first time Incarnation up but no other CDs, no potions, etc to compound its effect. The next time nothing up at all, just your rotation and playing as you would without a CD up nor using other things, again.
You will see a huge difference, and then the more things you add, like Hero/Lust/Warp, Potion, flask or phial, food, etc. they all add in to make it much bigger of a difference.
Is this a single player game where only that 30 second fight exists and then it’s done to never be replayed? Is there multiple fights/encounters or is this game a one and done ordeal? Come on man. Try to keep things in perspective here.
You never said be optimal. What I think you said was operate at 85-90%. Which i showed you can be done without taking CDs
You can literally choose to pick them or not. If you don’t want to have one, don’t take it. If you’re just looking to operate within the 85-90% range, I think this can happen with any spec.
Nope, 5:55 minute, 2 Incarn windows, if you would have bothered to actually click on the links and look through them.
But that’s not how the game works. The game doesn’t revolve around 30 second fights with 3 minute breaks after every 30 second fight. Nor does the game ignore other abilities (trinkets and such).
I showed nearly a 6 minute fight where only 1 minute of it was inside an Incarn window. Then I showed a nearly 6 minute fight without the 1 minute Incarn window and like I said, it was a total of 6.2% decrease in damage. That’s not tanking lol.
The game doesn’t operate within only a 30 second window of gameplay. This is your mistake. Since you like to reference Raids, let’s do a Single Target raid fight at 6 minutes, with and without Incarn.
Without:
With Incarn:
Granted these are my AoE based build, but it still remains. The CD changes next to nothing.
40 second fight
Incarn
Without Incarn
Again. 11k difference. 5.6% Still well within range of that 10-15% you wanted.
Let’s do a 20 second fight where it’s Incarn vs no Incarn
No incarn:
With Incarn:
8k difference. 3.5%
Edit: No matter how you cut it, the CD itself is not making or breaking the specs.