I need to understand why is the tank leading mobs/bosses all over the place in a dungeon (never in raids). Even when nothing bad is on the ground and there aren’t ground affixes to worry about (no sanguine, no quaking, no etc…) some tanks just pull mobs all over the place constantly, sometimes directly back into the face of dps and healers and sometimes leading the mob around a corner breaking LoS (both of those should be obvious NO-NO’s but it happens too often).
All of that mob movement kills my dps. I either waste time repositioning, lose damage when the mob is pulled out of my ground-affecting AoE’s or, when the tank pied pipers a mob directly at me, to avoid taking cleave damage or pulling threat off the tank.
I’ve seen this most frequently with Monks, Demon Hunters and Druid tanks and maybe it has something to do with having less armor-provided DR then plate-wearing tanks but I’m also sure I’ve seen this behavior with Warriors.
I never played a Tank and I don’t understand what I’m seeing. I’m hoping that if I did I might be able to use it to my advantage somehow and become more effective.
Not trying to play the blame game, just want to get better at what I do by understanding what they do.
As a tank, movement should be minimized once the boss is positioned. I only move the boss if required by mechanics.
As a disclaimer, I haven’t done a lot of bfa dungeons, so I can’t say if there are a lot of high movement fights.
It is always interesting that people rarely provide all the facts.
If you read between the lines, it looks like kiting in mythic+ which is a requirement.
Tanks have to kite to give healers the time to do what they need to do. You typically see more kiting in PUGS where DPS take much more damage than they should. Tanks kite to give healers time to catch up.
Of course, if we are talking about low level mythic + it could just be that they are practicing and don’t really care about the dungeon.
This is something I see exclusively in M+ pugs and most frequently with mobs and rarely with bosses
Kiting to avoid damage and give the healer time to heal other party members is useful info. I take care to avoid damage and the tank needs to kite less. I will certainly keep that in mind.
It explains a part of what I’ve observed but it doesn’t explain the major things
Leading a mob through the center of a party, especially when there appeared to be a lot of space to the left and right to kite.
Leading a mob around a corner.
Moving when the rest of the party isn’t taking damage on any significant level. And not just slow and steady movement with pauses but super fast everywhere.
I have to think that 1 and 2 above are the result of bad decision making in a fight. And i’m not really certain about 3.
Are there other explanations for those? If there are, what can I and other party members do to take advantage of those things?
If there are no other possible explanations (bad tank play), what would be the best way to say something after the fight is over?
I’m not looking to play a blame game, I want to get better and have more success regardless of who is tank or not. Understanding strengths and weaknesses is a way of doing that.
It depends on the person and the instance and what type of 5 man your running, heroics, m0 m+ low or m+high, everyone had there own reason if it isn’t something that lets say has to be done due to mechanics for me its the following
I will sometimes on my pally move the mobs to though the center if I know that either they don’t drop any aoe that could be avoided I do this because a lot of classes like to burn things down with their aoe spells so if I go them centered in the middle of everyone everyone can aoe with ease including myself without running the risk of a mob losing aggro and running off to the side to some range, for me makes it easier.
I don’t really go around the corner sometimes into another room but if I do these its either because I know a pat walks around in the room I am in, or the mobs have a throwback and I may have skipped a trash pull and the knockback could potentially knockback someone into a mob we missed, or I am just pulling to lead to the next area so I can grab a mob that may be coming around the corner first before it can sight aggro my healer or dps.
I don’t really do 3 only time I do is when a mechanic requires in a m+ as I am require to constantly be moving.
In my defense, my character has ADHD and has to constantly be moving, even if in a circle. But for bosses, I try to keep them positioned away from everyone else.
Let be known I also do number 1 if my healer has strong aoe heals more so then single target, disc priest I think but I know holy pally have some strong aoe heals so if the group is clustered together they can use them more efficiently.
I mean, it also depends on which boss. Some bosses have abilities that require LoS, so kiting the boss out of LoS of the party (or to a position where the party can break LoS) is worth it, even if it means we have to be on our own for a brief time.
Breaking line of sight is useful because it forces casters to move into melee distance where the tank can manage them. The tank can’t manage a caster that stands 30 yards away. Death Knights can compel a mob into melee distance but not all tanks can do so.
DPS Throughput doesn’t matter much on most trash mobs. You can still get them down fairly easily.
Reasons for tank’s “unnecessary” movement (that is actually very necessary)
Kiting to avoid damage to help healer catch up on the rest of the party (if I avoid damage, this becomes less necessary)
Moving to force ranged attackers to run into melee, either towards them or away, breaking their los
Force the party to clump to optimize AOE healing, which would happen much less if the party was better positioned
Moving to avoid unnecessary pulls (avoid pats, knockbacks into other mobs, etc…)
Moving to avoid a mechanic that does significant party damage, even around a corner.
Those are good things to understand and thanks for your input.
Not to pick on anyone (because everyone provided great info), but one thing jumped out at me as something tanks do but absolutely should not do:
Moving to “help” maximize aoe at best would have no effect on AOE output and at worst result in a significant dps loss by moving mobs away from ground-targeted damage spells that were cast when the Tank made contact, had control and was expected to remain stationary.
When it comes to doing damage, that’s our job and Tanks should trust that we have positioned themselves optimally already. We dps may not always stand in the best overall spot (too far from healer, body pulls, other stuff), but we kill it when it comes to damage. Unless you have to move, stay put and aoe will be maximized.
We need to be close to the foes to hold aggro. With multiple ranged foes that aren’t standing right on top of each other, breaking LoS so they come to us is one of the best ways to make sure that we can hit them all and sustain aggro.
what I mean by that is I move them in the center so everyone can aoe including myself with little to no movement. As a pally tank aoe tanking is my strong suit I can do it with ease and never if ever have to use a taunt. If I cluster them to the center I can use all my aoe as can everyone else including the healers and never have to worry about losing aggro on any mob even if said melee dpser is going ham on a mob that no one but him is targeting.
For me centering mobs I do on the pull I don’t pull to the corner then run to the center so you shouldn’t have dropped and aoe on my pull still I have them rounded up. Me doing this help because as long as I can aoe everything your a warrior and want to open with bladestorm knock your self out I got it, ur a monk and want to open with a whirlwind kick by all means your good, want to throw that frost orb as a mage go for it. As my Av, concencrate, and hammer has you covered.
Sometimes ill center the mobs around a caster unless I have a dk that can pull them over.
Repositioning a boss or mobs to face away from melee that has clustered behind the tank. (DPS should be behind the boss, when possible unless they target has a tail-swipe type mechanic. Sometimes we have to move a mob because the dps or heals could get hit by a cleave or cone-attack.
Also, it was an old rule, that still holds true, that dps should wait a second or two before attacking. Now, it’s not always necessary, however targeted ground spells (traps, starfall, etc should always wait until the target is in position.
Watch cast bars. If the target is about to cast a spell/ability that creates a pool/voidzone, don’t drop aoe spells. Learn the boss’s rotation as well.
The game expects tanks to train themselves. If they pick up bad habits before they know any better, they may never even realize they’re doing it wrong.
I’m not sure if it’s been said … but forcing ranged teammates in closer.
This is an issue i noticed as a resto druid. Ranged standing needlessly far from the group.
In BFA dungeons, ranged are more likely to pull patrols or extra packs by being that far out and there are very few reasons to be at distance.
Also to keep forward momentum. All of those spaces between pulls adds a lot of time to the run.
I hear this complaint from frost mages often. It’s much more pronounced on my DH than my DK because the DH has to kite but the mage wants me to stand still for max dps.
I can understand needing the group (including ranged members) to be in the best possible position to avoid unnecessary pulls and to optimize healing, a Tank and healer are right in being concerned about that. When it comes to damage output, trust your dps to make the right decision and at least with mages, we do much better when the mob isn’t moving all over the place. Mobs die faster, everyone takes less damage, if you can keep them still while I turn them into charred/frozen chunks.
I was bothered by tanks moving all over the place and was surprised to hear that some things I do probably contribute to that. If you are bothered that a ranged dps is “too far away” in mythic dungeons ask why. You might be surprised to hear that things you are doing are contributing to that.