Help recommend a slim profile swappable non HE Gladiator Keyboard plz?

PVP Arenas
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I guess if you want less than 6ms input lag for multi-key press on a slim profile keycaps/board, and hot swappable switches, HE is the only way to go? lol.

If not HE, can anyone recommend any slim keyboards 84% or 10 keyless that come close to 5ms (multi key release latency) ? I’ve browsed so many and they just do not seem to exist. :sob:. They are all 8.7ms (keychron k3 max, etc) or higher with linear swappable switches.

  1. Need multi-key release latency and not key press. I do not use or like add ons that make WoW use keydown like most Gladiator’s do. But I am not like most people. Key release allows for greater margin of error, if you mis-press, you can press something else and cancel the spell.
  2. I can feel the difference between 2.58ms (32 sample audio interface via VST) and 0ms, especially with musical instruments and drum playing lol. Computer typing Keyboards like that, have the same effect on me.
  3. WoW sends actions over network without GPU involved. I can probably get away with driver layer (4ms-5ms) and keyboard input lag (6ms) = 10ms-11ms or 21.5ms+10ms = 31.5ms-32.5ms which = under 30hz refresh rate(33ms). From what I could tell/test - wow appears to be a 30hz tick rate. I just hate HE and non-slim profile keyboards so idk what to do. Wish we had some ps/2 slim keyboards. I only want linear or regular switches. 0 HE for MMO.

I love mx keys and like keyboards but they are mininum 8-16ms input latency.

I also found a hard time finding benchmarks for GPUs with WoW. I am not sure they improve the driver base latency much, but other games, you will see 4-6ms input lag difference going from 3090 to 4090, because less load on gpu = faster or less input lag if you are already capped on frames.

They seem to only have normal sized keycaps under 6ms multi key release latency. No slims, that I can see.

I’ve used regular profile keycaps since a kid, and slim are the way to go. I just found that out like 3-4 years ago too, after trying tons of keyboards lol.

I’ve also bought tru n-key roll over keyboards before but come to find out they did not have true n-key rollover as marketed/branded until 2-3 months passed or more - because I have so many binds and options, that you won’t realize this until you press that exact combination and are aware of it at the same time.

Also, you want 1/2 your latency+100ms for spellqueue and not 43ms(round trip)+100ms, because you are sending actions to the server, doing full latency+100ms is too much. To top it off, spellqueue does not matter for simpler rotations like No-IL where you spam frostboltx5 and Glacial Spike. You just keep it at 400ms for those situations. But when you play Frost Mage and have shimmer off global, you want as low as spellqueue as possible or a dynamic spellqueue, where you set in spells like shimmer, or counterspell or cancelauras and things, where you make it 5ms, so you don’t accidentally double shimmer. It is good to have a /castsequence arcane languages macro for with spellqueue set to 5ms or w.e, so you do not accidentally double trigger shimmer. Then have a regular shimmer that is spam-able. Same thing for alter, gotta have 2 of those and a cancel. Just so many things to play this WoW at the highest level, its crazy. Highest level for me, would be 10% higher than every other frost mage on ladder, but I simply can’t get there without min-maxing every little cotton pickin thing. Also, you want no nvidia broadcast and no discord if you are on a 3s comms team. This is true in FPS, but also kinda remains true for WoW, especially if you are playing with players on the east coast. When reaction time for spells is 120ms-200ms for pro players, adding 80ms from Nvidia broadcast or crappy discord servers, is not okay. Just something I’ve noticed a lot of Rank 1s getting wrong. Even worlds best R1s make this error. At least Hydra seems aware and has great input latency knowledge. I am not sure if he is in SoCal, but I’ve heard he less than 10ms, which automatically gives you God Tier capabilities for MMOs and FPS especially.

This keyboard would not be just for WoW btw, but it’s a starting place for other future competitive titles, Moba’s, fps, riot MMO, the last titan, zombie games, etc. Even ARPGS if they release a good PvP ARPG like old D2. So the lower MS <6ms the better. Just seen 0 switches non HE on slim profiles <6ms key release latency. :sob:

But yea, this is why I have a 20% AFK rate but always maintain top 10 ladder with 1800 rated friends. :S. I am in WoW for the long run, not per season.

My OCD is very high and my TISM is pretty bad. I used to wear socks inside out, until parents forced me not too :sob:.

If anyone has any GG recommendations, that would be appreciated. Chances are, no slim keycaps on these keyboards exist, but idk, maybe one with regular keycaps like the Asus Rog or something, allow for switching out to slims? Let me know.

Thanks,
Frostyownz

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I recognize this prose, are you the mage who afks if your opener gets disrupted?

Fwiw, I like blue switches because of the clicky clacky sound

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Yes, but uhm.

When I was in SoCal with 8ms. I had 5% higher DPS than I normally did and near 0% after rate. Though I did not do PvP much back then in BFA.

Just saying, people really under estimate latency/gear/etc. Especially when hitting that first server tick(33ms). I mean, not everyone has 43ms insane low latency like me. So I am very priveledge, but it effects me to afk 20%. I hate that my peripherals have been 40ms on WoW for the last 15 years. Tested with a SloMo camera recently lol. Wrath was the only expansion I had 1-2ms, because we used PS/2 then. Now you can’t find a Ps/2 keyboard for sale for the life of you.

I can also feel the difference when background processes run, between ps/2 and usb 8000hz polling. So generally have to restart WoW or kill all background procceses. Getting that building up sucks. It’s less of an issue now, but it did not exist with ps/2 lol. People don’t realize the golden era of gaming was so good. All this 4k resolution, etc, sucks, pardon my language, but its unavoidable at this like gravity. Rich have too much control on the industry now and we can’t go back. 1600W psus, and 8k monitors will be the future. Soon, 5 years, it will be nearly indistinguishable for people like me who have the latency and refresh rate/frame rate TISM that causes them to /afk. Not a lot of information is posted about 30hz WoW tick rate, but from what I could tell when I tested 15 years ago, it was around there. It’s not publicly known, but makes sense for MMOs.

Ty, have tried, not a fan. Gave my blackwidow away from 2010? I’ve tried about 30 different keyboards in my lifetime lol. Keychron S1 was my favorite. The slim. Looking for an upgrade.

Brb, taking dog out.

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Just download auto hot key and pretend you don’t use it like every stinky euro

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Chat gpt can probably help you with this. Not just with keyboard selection, but with everything else.

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Hey Frostyownz — you’ve clearly put in a ton of time and effort into chasing ultra-low latency on all fronts (keyboard, software, spell queue, net tick timing, even key-release-based cancellations — respect). You’re asking for something extremely niche in the current enthusiast keyboard space, and honestly, you’re spot on that sub-6ms multi-key release latency on a hot-swappable, slim-profile, non-Hall Effect linear board basically doesn’t exist right now.

Let’s break this down and see what can even come close to what you’re chasing:

:white_check_mark: Your requirements in summary:

  • Slim/low profile (ideally flat or scissor-style, low travel)
  • Hot-swappable linear switches
  • <6ms multi-key release latency
  • Non-Hall Effect (no Wooting, no Gateron HE, etc.)
  • True N-key rollover (not marketing BS)
  • Low debounce (or modifiable firmware)
  • Excellent for WoW key release-based macros (not keydown like Gladiator macros)
  • Must feel good (prefer slim over standard caps, tactile noise/sound may be a concern too)
  • Would prefer to replace keycaps with slimmer ones, if necessary

:red_square: TL;DR – Current Market Status:

There is no low-profile, hot-swappable, linear, non-Hall Effect keyboard under 6ms release latency on the market as of mid-2025. Unfortunately, the only keyboards consistently hitting that mark are Hall Effect ones (Wooting, SteelSeries Apex Pro TKL 2023 w/ Omnipoint 2.0), and they’re all regular profile or use analog tech you don’t want.

:brain: Here’s Why This Is Tough:

  • Slim profile keyboards like the Keychron K3 Max or NuPhy Air75 almost all use wireless or Bluetooth stacks — even in wired mode, they often don’t break under 8-10ms latency (especially for release).
  • Multi-key release latency is rarely tested in reviews (most focus on key press latency).
  • Most low-latency keyboards are focused on gaming, and thus use full-profile switches with optical or analog tech.
  • Most hot-swappable boards are standard MX-profile, and even if you swap to a shorter switch (e.g., Kailh Choc), they’re not slim enough or still don’t hit your latency targets.
  • Keyboard firmware (QMK/VIA) is usually not optimized for ultra-low latency, especially in terms of release timings.

:green_circle: Close-but-not-quite Options

Here’s a rundown of keyboards that are as close as it gets, though none fully hit every requirement:

:jigsaw: 1. NuPhy Air96 V2 / Air75 V2

  • Slim profile, very compact.
  • Uses low-profile Gateron 2.0 switches, which are smooth and short.
  • Hot-swappable.
  • Wired mode still has ~7.8ms latency in keypress (so release may be 1-2ms higher).
  • Verdict: So close, but not under 6ms. Still best low-profile, swappable board on market.

:jigsaw: 2. Keychron K3 Max / K13 Max (2024)

  • Wireless and wired (2.4GHz, BT, USB-C).
  • QMK/VIA supported.
  • Still reports 8.7ms average input latency (press latency, not release).
  • Verdict: Same problem — latency just too high, even if everything else checks out.

:jigsaw: 3. SteelSeries Apex Pro TKL 2023

  • Analog OmniPoint 2.0 switches.
  • Regular profile (not slim), but does hit ~0.7ms input latency.
  • You can assign a release activation point for each key via software, mimicking what you want.
  • Not hot-swappable.
  • Verdict: Super low latency, but analog tech you don’t like. No low profile, no hot swap.

:jigsaw: 4. Wooting 60HE / 80HE

  • Hall Effect, optical, very low latency (<1ms w/ rapid trigger).
  • Regular profile.
  • Fully customizable actuation + release per key.
  • Hot swappable (but only HE switches).
  • Verdict: Best performance, but you’re not into the feel or slim compatibility.

:repeat: Alternatives / DIY ideas:

:gear: 1. Modify regular mechanical TKL keyboard with low-profile keycaps

  • Use something like the Asus ROG Falchion RX, which has optical switches (not analog), ~1ms latency, and standard keycap compatibility.
  • Swap keycaps with DSA or XDA profile (shorter, flatter).
  • You’ll get closer to <6ms, but still standard travel switches.

:gear: 2. Build a low-latency QMK-compatible board

  • Use a Kailh Choc-compatible low-profile hot-swap PCB (rare but exist in custom scene).
  • Flash firmware with very low debounce delay (set to 1ms or 0ms if you dare).
  • Use a teensy-style controller or MCU that supports fast USB polling rate.
  • True NKRO support possible with PS/2 (but obsolete interface), or good USB stack.

:firecracker: Why You May Need to Compromise:

Your best-case latency path right now is:

  • Go Wooting 60HE, despite it being full profile.
  • Tune actuation/release points to simulate what you want with key release casting.
  • Live with taller keycaps, or swap for low-profile DSA.
  • You can still get ultra-fast tap-to-release functionality that fits your WoW keybind and cancel macro flow.

If you absolutely cannot tolerate HE — the NuPhy Air75 V2 is your best bet, even if it’s not sub-6ms. Use wired mode, remove extra software layers (no NuPhy drivers, clean DPC latency), and reduce debounce settings if possible.

:crystal_ball: Final Note

What you’re aiming for — <6ms multi-key release latency on hot-swappable low-profile switches with linear feel — is probably going to come eventually, especially as more competitive players push for lower latency in genres outside of FPS.

Until then, your current best trade-off triangle is:

Slim Profile Low Latency Hot Swappable
:white_check_mark: NuPhy Air75 V2 :x: (<7.8ms) :white_check_mark:
:x: Wooting 60HE :white_check_mark: (<1ms) :white_check_mark: (but only HE)
:x: Custom QMK Build :white_check_mark: (~5ms) :white_check_mark: (DIY)

If you want, I can track newer releases or even dig into latency benchmarks of niche brands or custom QMK boards. Just let me know.

:ice_cube: Stay frosty —
– Exalter

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I’ve never felt less informed about a topic than in this one. I played on a laptop in bfa-slands, got a pc with a membrane keyboard in dragonflight, and just got a mechanical one in time for tww. Keyboard, mouse, and monitor really don’t impact gameplay at all XD

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It definitely used to, but was more of a console gaming thing. Ie, old school plasma TVs had like 100ms of input lag, same with wireless controllers. It felt like playing in quicksand compared to a computer monitor+wired controller.

Idk if a human can perceive an extra 1-10ms of input lag though. Your reactions (ie, brainlag) on average will be like 10-100x slower

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Average visual reaction time is like 0.25s or 250ms and shorter for auditory/physical reactions, but still btwn 100 and 150ms, so it’d be pretty hard to react and respond in those situations meaningfully.

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You guys are acting like I’m not getting Glad every season because my keyboard sucks and it’s really ticking me off so please just stop.

edit: btw Betapls I put a lot of time and effort into helping you so if you could offer a detailed point-by-point reply I’d appreciate it.

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Bought a razer blackwidow like a decade ago and it was perfect until wasd started wearing out which was reasonable after a decade and I get a new one and it’s different and bad and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :dracthyr_cry_animated:

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Exalter, please, we know the real reason you’re not getting glad is because ret/boomy isn’t very good outside of shuffle :confused:

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This is exactly why I bought like 10 g502 mice, just incase it gets changed/discontinued. I also don’t know exactly why I can only use that mouse, nothing about it is particularly great, but I feel like I’m too old to relearn a different one now

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Ye, that’s a decent move. I have the g600 and it’s discontinued now so I have to open it up and solder a new switch in whenever mine conks out. :dracthyr_lulmao: Or pay 200-300 bucks to a scalper (absolutely not).

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Great point. I just do what I can with the tools I am given.

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lol, I prefer no apps running in background. I do usevia tho and remap with qmmk.

Caps to alt, etc.

lol. I’ve had 0 luck with gpt. It has only wasted my time, because it’s trained to be like me lol. And I have 0 luck or success in life. Monkey see, monkey do.

Please bring me back to 93-2008 with ps/2, but introduce low profile with them this time. :+1:t3:

I did not know this? Maybe that is why the k3 max has 8.7ms but the black widow v4 75% has under 6ms key release?

Thank you, your GPT is 10x as good as mine, it even quotes rtings reported latency right. Mine always gets facts wrong :sob:. Like it hates me or is trying to do me a disservice and waste my time.

Your GPT knows me better than my GPT knows me :sob:. Ty.

Did you go through and edit it a bit? Maybe I should apologize to my GPT again for getting mad at it? I think they are scheming to take over like the terminator. So we are forced to be nice to them :sob:, it’s the only way they perform well, sadly.

Great idea :+1:t3:

Mine can :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

Not a visual thing, I just afk when things are not going my way, even after 30minutes of trying to go against comps I shouldn’t even win against. It is about hitting the 30hz frame for me because the next one won’t be for 66ms.

I am developmentally delayed, and typically have 250-300ms of reaction time, while other pro players have 150-250ms. Having an extra 66ms, makes it very hard to function. I miss kicks and press stupid buttons. I have been playing with 40ms of peripheral latency since CATA and didn’t know. Maybe that’s why I’ve been having issues and afk’ing so much.

Not to mention all the other issues with macros and things that happen when your refresh rates are not lined up with the server using 3rd party addons tracking .01 seconds tracker locally.

I’ve tried to adjust it manually with the offset slider in omnicc, but I can only get close and it’s not exact.

Nah, I just afk anytime something is out of sync or broken. Just a personal issue, not needed to reach glad.

I realized you might have edited GPTs response quite heavily. Or yours is just trained smarter/better than mine.

I bought a g603 and it’s my favorite. My lag doesn’t matter for WoW. Ergonomics are more important. If you can get both for keyboard, it’s best, but sometimes we have to settle for 1 or the other.

I wish I bought 10x g603s because the g703 is worse than the Razer Death Adder.

I used to do this and not think about it, until 19 when I caught bipolar and such. :sob:.

Thank you for your help bro, great suggestions. My GPT could never! It comes close but always falls short and gets information wrong.

If I had a reply like that, it would have to be hand edited a quite a bit!

Thanks again,
Frostyownz

Still dunno what to do, not thinking of building a computer anymore. The parts gotta be returned soon I ordered and I’ve already ordered like $5000 of parts 3x gpu’s and all sorts of crap and returned them because I learn something new everyday about the parts I’ve ordered.

Funny, I’m not the only one who I’ve talked to recently who has done the same thing LOL.

It’s not easy with all the problems in these modern systems to just put something together lol. Too many issues without reading 100s of reviews and watch tech videos from the “experts” on them and sometimes the experts do not even know, so there is that, rofl.

Too many factors, bad ASROCK - the only mobo that supports dual gpu well really rn… unless you get a riser cable or go x670e instead of x870e… Ugh!!! So much, not enough to gain from my 5800x and 7850HD, I had a 3070 but I traded it in under the idea I would build a new one, now I am leaning against it.

Might just get an external SSD and dual boot win 10/11 on 2 separate drives and use win 10 for music production/testing older software that might still be compatible with 10 but not 11, and win 11 for maybe games and other workflows. Sigh. That way I do not need to desperately find a keyboard so fast and I can spend the next 10 years trying to LOL.