So my dh is 3k io and I started playing a ret in m+. I just don’t get what is the point of the havoc spec.
Ret is way way easier to play. Easier rotation, no movement necessary, no dangerous channeling (eye beam with blind fury lol), and does better damage. Also better defensive. Also better group utility (sac, loh, wog hits for 150k plus, brezz). Also better stops, st stun + aoe blind vs nova/incap.
5% magic dmg does not compensate for this.
What is the point of havoc? Mobility I guess? Not worth it.
you know, they always do this with ret. It gets buffed/reworked, then its insanely good, then they nerf it into the ground. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum. Havoc is in a good spot right now since devs arent looking to make many changes, and its pretty good overall.
there is a public that must be satisfied who likes to play in a calm and relaxed way while they do something else on their second screen. I am one of them, I just don’t have a leveled paladin.
For the past month or so since the ret changes I’ve noticed them competing in higher keys but not by much. Their damage profile is no where near as consistent as ours and for a big pull they’re not doing anything remotely competitive with a proper EssB/meta/Ragefire combo without speccing out of s/t. I play a hard Soulrend/Momentum build in almost all content these days, most I have to alter between s/t/aoe is the ring and I don’t exactly lose much on either end of the spectrum. Ret otoh has to play two completely different talent builds if it wants to push boss or trash and every time I’ve seen people try to play a hybrid it’s barely 80k overall by the end. I’m pretty consistently over 90k, well over 100k on any dungeon with bigger pulls.
Maybe I’m just talking from confirmation bias, I’ve definitely seen a few rets more than hold their own but the margin is never more than a few thousand dps overall by the end. I will say there are a LOT of 2800+ rated rets who have absolutely no idea what they’re doing in a lot of keystones, terrible performance, frequent deaths. The spec is definitely rewarding some lower effort players, probably needs to be nerfed for that reason alone.
Euh? Pure aoe build is the way to go in m+ for ret. Their ST is about as bad as DH and aoe as good. Plus, their dmg is impossible to fail unlike DH. Ret can also carry grp through tough bosses phase (bubble sac, loh, wog for 150k). Just no reason to pick DH.
I have had extremely bad experiences with 3k rio casters (sp boomy etc) and DHs. Never had a single bad xperience with a ret. That spec cannot fail.
Last key I finished was a 22NO with me and two ret. I was 10k above both in overall dps by the end of the dungeon, myself 98k, one 89k and the other 85k. I was ahead of both of them by comparable margins on boss damage as well. This is my consistent experience with ret. It looks good because it’s easy enough to produce above average output with, but at the end of the day that’s all you’re talking about. Above average. Nothing exceptional. We timed that key by 15 seconds, but we were hurting for damage the entire run. If it were my key I would’ve ran with two fewer ret. Maybe an ele or an unholy DK instead.
Or perhaps it’s just a skill issue? Perhaps I could’ve timed it better if I myself were the one playing ret, if I had devoted more time and energy to that spec than this one. Doesn’t make much difference though. As it pertains to this topic havoc can easily hold it’s own for output. Build and play correct and you can smoke any fotm bandwagoners. I’ve played this spec long enough to know what a bad season looks like for us in keys and this is not one of them. Laughable to suggest otherwise.
I haven’t timed a 23NO on my DH yet (ilvl 419) but I have timed a 23 NO on my couple weeks old Razzelino (my Ret) when he was 413ilvl. Both my ret and DH will avg around 105k dps on a typical tyr route. My DH however likes to buttpull with VR, and is omega annoying to play on last boss. He also offers no carry potential on any bosses. My ret can carry the intermission of last boss by himself, or the storm of 2nd boss, with bubble sac loh wog.
0 reason to invite a DH. I always ignore DHs these days and don’t mind going double ret for dps consistency and tankiness
I mean when you’re on the ret, inviting a DH increases the majority of your damage by 5% especially in cleave/aoe situations. The DH doesn’t require to be saved through most mechanics so you limit the people you have to “carry”.
If you’re pulling when using VR it sounds like the problem is a skill issue. I run both Ret and DH too both are great.
Every DH dies/blunder with VR/felrush, even top dh like shadarek (watched him die 3 times like that in Cos/smbg Mplus on his stream last time I watched).
The 5% debufg is a raid thing, not that impactful in mplus. If I need another melee, I d rather pick another ret, or a sub rogue if st stop are needed. Probably dk over dh too depending on the dungeon.
Well here’s your problem. You’re not taking accountability for your mistakes. Your DH isn’t butt-pulling, you are. If you were playing destro and were trying to fit in a last CB to take full advantage of your spender window, stalled in a hazard too long and died you wouldn’t say “my warlock likes to spam CB” that would be absurd, rather you’d look at the encounter, make a mental note of how long your window of opportunity is to chain CB and adjust your play style accordingly. Likewise your job as a DH is to figure out where your safety zones are for FR and VR. I’ve blundered on lock and DH in this way plenty of times, learned, improved and then I stop blundering. That’s the game.
Claiming DH prevents you from situational awareness by design is just as flawed a thinking as assuming that ret “cannot fail”, you will brick plenty of keys with either attitude on either spec.
Zzz you didnt stop blundering. If you don’t blunder ever, you’re not taking enough risk and your dps is suboptimal. I’m actually higher than you in M+, so I don’t need the lecture.
In any cases, even wo buttpulling and dying to mechanics like every single DH does (including the 3600 rio one), ret is still better.
I mean… Maybe you are right I don’t really know… I just stumbled upon this thread and found it pretty odd since looking at the top meta comps it seems like a lot of them are running a Havoc DH and I don’t remember seeing any Rets in there…
But, regardless, shouldn’t the point of playing a spec be because you like it and find it fun??.. So let me flip the question: If you enjoy your spec AND it’s meta and among the top performers, why wouldn’t you play it??..
Maybe Ret (or whatever other spec) is indeed better, Havoc is still performing great in M+ so I see no reason not to play it if you enjoy it.
Right back after just quickly checking Wowhead… It has Havoc as the not only “S” tier but in fact as the No1 DPS spec for M+… I guess they could have it wrong or whatever, but that would just mean your spec is No2 instead of No1.
Look at 10.1 prediction which is more representative of the post 10.0.7 patch. Havoc is below ret/sub/enh. Anyone pugging m+ can attest that this also corresponds to the current community perception of spec strength. Enh/sub rogue are extremely desired. Ret is getting there too since the rework.
Ok, but you just listed 3 specs, there are 28 DPS specs… 13 melee… Where does it stand against the remaining 24 specs (or 9 melee)??
And I mean it’s expected for the meta to shift around, seems like Havoc was meta in S1, I guess it might fall off a bit in S2 but is that such a big deal?