Havoc Rotation is Boring and Looks Worse in Shadowlands, Help

Classes Demon Hunter
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After a brief hiatus, i return disappointed to see that Blizzard does not have anything remotely exciting in store for the demon hunter’s class design in shadowlands.

As it stands, our core toolkit is embarrassingly simplistic.

Things I don’t understand:

  1. Our core damaging rotation toolkit has no synergy, no proc mechanic, no buff maintenance, nothing. Without borrowed power and investing in mandatory talents, our core rotation would basically be demons bite, chaos strike, and eye beam. Our class, in and of itself, should have a solid foundation of abilities and passives with synergies, which should then be strengthened by talents and borrowed power.
  2. We wouldn’t touch blade dance if we didn’t talent into it, and we only talent into it because the other options are relatively garbage. (talking ST damage, not in terms of being a master mechanic guy who taunts and BD’s or aoe)
  3. The two most iconic elements of our class are Demonic & Momentum. They’re mutually exclusive.
  4. Momentum, which has the potential to provide a great addition to our rotation requires that we launch forward in a game whose mechanics are often designed to punish you for moving out of position. This is a glaring issue and after four years, it is still dependent on fel rush. Momentum on paper could be such a fun talent. Buff maintenance is an engaging element of a damaging rotation, but it CAN’T be contingent upon fel rush as it’s currently designed.

Take away our borrowed power and our core rotation is basically another class that was just created at level one.

Things i’d like to see (will update based on feedback, if i get any):

  1. Make first blood baseline. Just makes sense, would motivate us to use a spender other than chaos strike in our core rotation. Open up this talent row for more diversity and choices.
  2. Make Demonic *baseline. Demonic transformation is arguably the most fundamental of our class fantasies. Why is it not baseline? With demonic made baseline, also make eyes of rage baseline. Just makes sense.
  3. Modify momentum to not be based on a fel rush which requires us to rush forward. Perhaps a new ability could be introduced that shares charges with fel rush, but doesn’t launch us forward. This ability would have a modifier in lieu of movement, such as an increased secondary stat, or it could simply do enough damage to justify the global on its own.
  4. With momentum fixed, and demonic made baseline, add two new talents to our final tier that provide unique gameplay experiences that are as inspired as momentum or demonic. On paper, momentum is cool. Give us more cool, just make sure the cool can be reasonably executed.
18 Likes
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The problem with momentum is, while it looks good on paper, in practice it’s total garbage because of the mobility required in the vast majority of fights. Honestly, we don’t need more movement or an attack based on mobility. We already have plenty of the former, and the latter doesn’t work well in practice.

Having played rogue, enhance shaman, both unholy and frost dk, and retadin farily frequently through BfA (and almost all of the other xpacs), I can say with enthusiasm, good. I like a class that leaves out the RNG. It’s one of the draws to Havoc for me.

This is why First Blood needs to be baseline. It would help the future state of Havoc in SL, because right now the spec is looking like someone dumped nuclear waste on a dumpster fire.

6 Likes
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Exactly. That’s what i don’t understand about it. The talent itself is great on paper, so modify it so it can be great in world too. modify fel rush so we can choose whether we move forward or stay in position, let another ability proc it, or introduce a new ability that can proc it, as some ideas.

Well, proc is primarily RPPM. So, it’s RNG but it’s also kinda not. I get what you’re saying, but it still introduces a layer of reflexes and engagement to the rotation. It’s at the bottom of my priority list, personally (i’d much rather get a dark slash and momentum baked into the rotation in a better way), but it’s just one thing that could be introduced

Agreed.

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I have to disagree. I find the Momentum build - including dark slash in the mix - to be unengaging to play in general, and nearly infuriating to play on high-movement fights.

2 Likes
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Again, with the caveat that the mechanic of momentum can be utilized without the movement displacement of fel rush. Dark slash (especially if it would also buff blade dance) is really just a single global you add into the rotation that makes your next button smashing feel more exciting. That coupled with a momentum window is really engaging

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I’d be find if Momentum and Dark slash - or their demonic build counterparts - became baseline.

Not that blizz will do that in SL. They’d rather gut the class like a sturgeon and replace the innards with toxic waste.

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I honestly don’t know what they’re doing.

Blizzard: “Hey, immolation aura is baseline”
Us: “Great, thanks!! We’ve wanted this for a long time, and really it’s just common sense”
Blizzard: “You still have to invest a talent point into it, and even after you invest that talent point, it’s still a worse ability than it has been in bfa”
Us: "Then… why… even… make it baseli-…

Blizz: “Hey, you know how you really like that eye beam cooldown reduction on eyes of rage azerite trait?”
Us: “Yeah! It adds a really cool element and synergizes well with a talent in our first tier”
Blizz: “we’ve baked it into your demonic appetite talent. See! It makes sense, you get a talent that can proc souls, and those souls not only heal and give fury, but also reduce eye beam cooldown!”
us: “That’s awesome. That makes so much sense! What an exciting first tier talent!”
Blizz: “We moved it to a new talent you’ll never pick”

4 Likes
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They should rework momentum to proc on felblade instead of felrush or something. Playing momentum in high end content is just not worth it and can screw over your group or raid. All I can say is to MAKE FIRSTBLOOD BASELINE, rework or remove momentum and replace nemesis with either chaos blades or blood let.

2 Likes
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For momentum to be viable again there needs to be bloodlet or something similar to take its place

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That’s the antithesis of talent design.

Removing that passive from Demonic Appetite is the best thing they’ve done for the class this entire Alpha/Beta. It’s already going to see play; that passive would have made everything else not see play.

It’s sad how some DH are complaining that Momentum is the only thing that will see play now but praised DA getting a passive that would make it the only talent to see play. Shows where their biases really are.

None of these talents should be baseline, especially not Momentum or Dark Slash. I don’t want my damage tuned around a garbage-to-utilize passive buff like DS and Momentum because that’s how we end up like Frost DKs who have their kit revolve around Pillar of Frost.

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This would help a lot. Furious Gaze should be worked in somehow, too.

As silly as this sounds, momentum needs to not be tied to movement - namely, fel rush (and vengeful retreat, to a lesser degree). Tying momentum to fel rush makes it a poor choice for high-end content with lots of movement, which we know blizz loooooooves to put in boss fights. It’s why demo build was so popular, even before Furious Gaze.

1 Like
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Idk about this one. I don’t like the idea of momentum being so reliant on procs. Felblade also typically is accompanied by demon blades, as their synergy is so strong. Momentum shouldn’t demand that i play with demon blades.

I don’t miss bloodlet, or the “snapshot” style of gameplay. I also don’t think it really aligns with our class fantasy. We aren’t really known for throwing glaives and making stuff bleed.

Again, don’t think “snapshot” is good gameplay design for a melee class.

No, introducing that talent is the best thing they’ve done for this class. Instead of thinking “this talent is too good, other talents wouldn’t see play”, I’d suggest you think “this talent being reasonably good speaks to how terrible the other choices are”.

Guess i’m not seeing the logic here. DA reduced the cooldown of eye beam. Eye beam is central to the demonic build. I see excellent synergy between DA and Demonic more than I see it with momentum.
I personally do think the idea of momentum is a more fun gameplay style than demonic, because demonic didn’t really change anything. We still press the same buttons, they just hit a little harder. I don’t dislike demonic by any means, but it has overwhelmingly been the only viable choice for an entire expansion. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to favor the option of alternatives. You seem biased for demonic, yet cast blame on others for wanting variety. Curious…

I agree with this completely. Personally, i think there should be two variations of fel rush. A fel rush which propels us forward, and a fel rush that keeps us for the most part in the same place, but does higher damage, guarantees a crit, or something to that effect. Sacrifice damage/buff for movement, or sacrifice movement for damage/buff.

As opposed to demonic, which tunes our damage around a passive buff like meta, derived from eye beam? Your biases are showing.
At least dark slash is an active ability we press and would be an addition to the rotation. Demonic is a byproduct of a button we would already be pressing.
Pillar of frost is a button you press once a minute and the buff is just there. Dark slash is a rotational/short-cooldown ability that puts a debuff on the enemy, and momentum would utilize a rotational/short-cooldown ability with stacks that puts a buff on you. You also have to consider the opportunity cost of sacrificing movement for damage. This is much more dynamic gameplay than pillar of frost. not even comparable

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Actually Sylithros is right. Having the cooldown reduction to Eye Beam tied to DA wasn’t healthy for our talent tree. It would ensure that DA would be the only choice during the entire expansion if that were to be the case, unless the other two options received massive buffs to compensate.

Momentum is extremely toxic on high-end environments and totally not fun. It was the best simming talent, even ahead of Demonic for the first raid tier of BfA, but Demonic was still chosen over it for the majority of the playerbase simply because Momentum is garbage playstyle on the vast majority of situations in most difficult content.

Dark Slash (Essence Break) is simply Demonic 0.5, it’s simply a worse version. You get a lot more value from Demonic on both Chaos Strike and Blade Dance than you do with Dark Slash and you just press Eye Beam instead of the ability itself instead. It’s literally a worse copy of Demonic, no exaggeration.

1 Like
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Right, that’s what i said. take a look at the other options and make them comparable. DA was finally given a reasonable set of effects. As i already said, it should make blizzard - and us - think about what that says about our alternative options. Moving our eye beam cd reduction, something that every demon hunter is begging for, to a talent that will never be taken is toxic.

I’ve said many times that the movement requirement of momentum is the problem. When i talk about momentum, i’m speaking in the context of modifying it so that it doesn’t disrupt positioning. Pressing an ability to activate a short buff you have to actively manage is engaging. If this could be done with an ability that doesn’t propel us forward, it would be a very welcome alternative to our rotation. As i’ve already said, giving us two different fel rush’s is one idea.

I agree that, numerically, it does less damage than demonic. My point is that dark slash is an active ability that we’d add to our rotation, whereas demonic is a bi-product of an ability we already press. Not to mention, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. If we could keep our eye beam cd reduction, it’s likely eye beam’s cd would line up very well with dark slash’s.
The idea of this thread is that we have too much borrowed power, or that our class’s toolkit, by its own merit, it’s too simplistic. Giving us a viable momentum, and/or an additional core rotational ability, would provide greater engagement.

1 Like
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I didn’t say procs. I said not tied to movement abilites. I hate procs. It’s one of the reasons Havoc is such a big draw to me.

HAHAHAHH yeah, we are. Just a bit. All we’re missing is a fel elemntal that pops up when we throw our glaives into the ground… Which, why don’t we get THAT as a legendary, as opposed to the total crap that has been thrust upon us so far.

Agreed. Very much agreed. I refused to play momentum, even when it was top build. On top of the mechanic not working well in high-movement fights, it’s also so…boring.

1 Like
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? i didn’t say you did?

We’re not known for it to the degree it should be a talent in our final talent tier. mobility, demons, chaos magic, and dual wielding war glaives are our core identity. We can throw glaives, sure, but momentum snapshotting bloodlet was a primary source of damage. would never want to return to that style of gameplay

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Eye Beam > Essence Break > Blade Dance isn’t exactly what I would call fun or engaging. Losing a GCD when trying to manage one of the buffs would be pretty lame. I’m not a fan of Dark Slash/Essence Break as a whole and I feel like we could use something else entirely in its place.

I’d rather not have a pet at all. Pet AI is completely useless and I don’t want that frustration added to our kit.

Well, an entire phase was dedicated to Illidan throwing both of his glaives at the ground and summoning said elementals.

1 Like
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that’s fair, and demonic + dark slash would be redundant, as they provide buffs for the same things.
I agree with the notion that if we already have demonic, we don’t need dark slash. It is poor class design that we have two of the same things on two different rows, and using a gcd to cast dark slash would waste a gcd within the few seconds we have of demonic, which is even more glaringly awful now that the duration has been nerfed to 6 seconds. I’d like a new core ability added to our rotation, but i take the point that dark slash isn’t that ability, considering we already have it as a talent option.

agreed, no thank you.

boss phasing =/ viable class mechanics and identity. if anything, we already have a similar thing in RFA. Still, he threw them on the ground and summoned elementals. wasn’t throwing em around and bleeding us out

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Momentum is a solid choice. In Shadowlands, given current legendaries and conduits, it is the clear choice: there’s no reason to play anything else on that row because all of those factors push it ahead. DA with the Eyes of Rage passive is Momentum with all the Legendary and Conduit boosts, except in one talent.

Blind Fury, Felblade, and DA already see generally equal play throughout an expansion. Buffing DA, when it doesn’t need a buff, is creating a problem, not solving one.

So we make it baseline and now we have a worse Colossal Smash that only affects Chaos Strike & Blade Dance. So now those two abilities get nerfed to account for baseline Dark Slash, but it’s OK because you get an extra button to press to bring CS and BD back to their current damage values, causing Havoc to feel weaker when Dark Slash is on CD.

Again, that’s creating a problem, not solving one.

And you’ve completely missed the point. Frost is balanced around having 15% extra Strength and it feels horrible. You’re asking to be balanced around a worse Colossal Smash instead of doing the obvious fix and making First Blood baseline and adding another talent for that row.

I’ve been a proponent of Momentum since I picked this class for Legion. I am not a proponent of shoving my preferred playstyle onto other people, especially when I can recognize that it’s not the best move for the class.

1 Like
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I’m fine with DA losing eyes of rage because i agree with you; it would remove the other two as viable options. Still, it’d be great if we get eyes of rage in a practical way. Now, we’ve lost it, as blizzard has thrown it into a talent that will never be chosen. Eyes of rage and chaotic transformation are our two coolest borrowed powers in terms of azerite traits bringing some variance to the class, and we’re losing them both. It’s sad times.

Demonic is effectively the same thing. i understand you’ve chosen your words carefully by saying “baseline”, but we still feel like a wet noodle when we’re outside of demonic. You’re talking about issues of tuning. If we do the same overall damage with dark slash as we do in a baseline without it, i’m fine with that, because we get a more meaningful variance in our rotation introduced. however, as i mentioned above, Demonic is a talent effectively does the exact same thing as dark slash, so we have two talents that do the same thing. That’s poor design. Dark slash is a placeholder for the purposes of this conversation, as is momentum. What I’m really aiming for is that we have a core toolkit that involves more synergy or interaction with our abilities. We have no active buff management, no proc mechanic, nothing. stripped bare, our core moveset is far too simple. we need some sort of ability cohesion that makes the damaging rotation more engaging. Momentum is a prime example of ability cohesion - it encourages us to press an additional button, requires buff management, and synergizes with other abilities - provided it can be adjusted to not require us to compromise positioning

That’s fair, first blood should absolutely be baseline. Still, our numbers should be tuned towards a rotation whose level of difficulty matches its damage output. As we are now, demon hunters do far too much damage for the amount of engagement in the rotation, in my opinion

No one’s “shoving a preferred playstyle onto other people”. All i’m saying in this thread is that i was hoping shadowlands would bring with it a more engaging rotation, and the potential for alternative talent choices. All of BFA, it’s been Demonic. At this time, Shadowlands looks even worse than it is in BFA. as you’ve said, momentum appears to be the best choice, but it is a mechanically faulty talent. It’s not looking good. What’s unfortunate is that, if we were a three spec class, demonic might be its own spec, and momentum could be another. Be a powerful demon, or be an agile warrior… Unfortunately, it seems that blizzard would force us to choose between two specs and playstyles in a single talent row.