I see they have a tough job keeping us all happy. I quite like the simple non-mover playstyle we had in DF. It made up for its lack of utility/defensives with pure damage.
I dont know if you play havoc as main, allow me to explain.
The issue is not that felblade âpullsâ the souls. The issue is the very design itself of putting ANYTHING at all behind the collection or use of souls. Blizzard tried and tested such designs, souls, RNG demons that you kill etc. it is ALL bad.
AS havoc, there is NOTHING heroic around the throw glaive or soul collection that makes it even remotely fun or appealing.
12 Likes
When the damage was simpler and more effective, I actually liked killing that demon for a buff/heal.
I wouldnât want it back with us in our current state though. Adding yet another small buff window and one that is RNG, would be horrid.
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This is correct. Essentially, to provide an example, you only did 100% of the listed value on Silken Court to both bosses in 11.0.2, and only did 150% of the listed value if the boss was alone. Now, after 11.0.5, however, you do 140% to both bosses regardless. It was a very well-thought-out numeric buff.
With that said, I want to strongly emphasize my feedback is not specifically directed at throughput. I have no idea what metrics Blizzard uses to define âstrongâ and âweakâ, nor how they decide which classes should be buffed and nerfed. My complaints are centered entirely on the design of the class, which is where I believe the failures lie.
Points mentioned above about character customization, in my mind, are just as core to these complaints as my complaints about the layout of the Demon Hunter class tree, the bugs that we have, and the systemic problems I have with the Havoc specialization tree. The fact that people started speculating about, and getting hyped by, the existence of Draenei Demon Hunters in the latest Hearthstone expansion is pretty cool, for example, but given weâve seen Night Elf Paladins in the game since⌠what, Cataclysm? Iâm not sure that it means much.
2 Likes
Oh yeah, another point to add.
Can Hunt spread the AoE on an explosion? I think weâre just so past the strafing like idiots through mobs just to spread a DoT.
It seems like everything involving DoTs of Havoc has some weird friction:
- BW you have to tab target
- ToR doesnât stack so it loses damage on tier resets
- Hunt you have to AD-AD across targets
4 Likes
Donât forget the throw glaive dot on the list.
I agree with you 100%, and Iâll give my 2 cents on the matter having played DH since Antorus.
Class Tree
I agree with every point, and I would also add that although Sigil of Spite is currently only used in the Aldrachi build, it seems bad to have the last 3 choices in this tree be damage ones.
If Iâm Vengeance or use the Aldrachi build, all 3 options are good choices for me, and I canât use all of them, especially since we have to pass through some useless points along the way, while Fel-Scarred is much less punishing because it doesnât require choosing all 3.
Also, Collective Anguish seems to make a lot more sense being linked in a node with Demonic rather with a Fel Rush CD reduction. This would open up space for a rework and put a really interesting utility option there.
Spec Tree
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I agree with this change from Cycle to a permanent cdr, and Iâd also include it in a permanent meta duration extension for Shattered Destiny.
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The Throw Glaive problem: There really is a problem with the synergy of talents that buff TG along the tree. TG could use something more to be a really interesting option, especially for Aldrachi. Perhaps make Glaive Tempest buff a cast or modify TG in some way?
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Burning Wound - yep, Blade Dance applying the dot would be perfect!
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Chaotic Transformation. This is one of my biggest problems with DH these days, especially after Violent Transformation. Having to wait for the right moment to use Meta often causes us to miss the right time to use it by waiting for the CD, or to force it to be used even if it results in a loss of DPS depending on the situation.
What I see happening that would solve this problem is changing Chaotic Transformation to double the damage of the first cast of Eye Beam and Blade Dance, as well as changing Violent Transformation to double the damage of the first cast of Sigil of Flame and Immolation Aura after using Meta.
This way, the practical effects of doing double damage before using meta and after using meta would remain practically the same, and there would still be the downside of reducing the fury generation of the skills since they would only be used 1x. This would also alleviate the combo problem mentioned. -
Aldrachi Reaver. I like the idea of a build focused on Glaives, but it could use more ideas. One of them Iâve already mentioned here would be to make Glaive Tempest part of the rotation, something like Essence Break does.
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Defense. I think DHâs defensive options are really poor and while I agree with the op, I think another change should be made on our spec tree focusing Deflecting Dance. And although DDâs skill ceiling is interesting, itâs nowhere near the version it was during BFA. One more defensive option would be to rework this talent to create a shield based on x% of the damage caused by Blade Dance.
This would still force DH to keep attacking to generate shield and leech, but it would relieve healers a lot more, since it would improve our self sustain (which I believe is our niche). -
I could also make a point regarding the issue of No Mover vs Mover builds. I believe there should be a choice between Unbound Chaos and a new talent that would focus on No Mover builds. Maybe IA buffing Blade Dance?
This would obviously lead to a need for a new rearrangement of the talent position, but in my opinion it would be something that could actually give the player an option, instead of forcing them into an inferior build just because they donât like a certain playstyle.
I would also remove the Vengeful Retreat part of Initiative and perhaps move it to another ability that both of them could use without too much detriment.
These are the changes I would like for the issues with Havoc currently, besides the ones already mentioned by Atrayen.
7 Likes
At this point since we had no huge change and nothing on the prepatch note and barely any modification in the class tuning and hotfix, Iâm coping that the reason is we will have a third spec and a huge revamp, I canât see any other reason that this mutism and lack of anything. There canât be another reason, unless weâre punished for somethingâŚ
Thanks for this post! I was hoping someone with good arguments could write about how I feel about DH class. I play both DH and DK and the difference of how the class works is an abyss (and DK has a lot of design problems too).
I hope they can fix DH before our next raid
Weâre punished for dragon flight according to anyone who doesnât play DH 
I donât post much here, but adding my support here because I havenât had so little fun playing Havoc since the Sinful Brand fiasco. The points Atreyen makes that I think are particularly salient:
(1) The lack of changes is really feeling like we are totally overlooked. I had started complaining as much to my guildies lately before Atreyenâs post. Itâs so disheartening to see pages and pages of tuning/changes to other classes, and none for Havoc. If weâre not supposed to feel overlooked, forgotten, ignored, etc, then what message exactly are we exactly to read from the lack of changes? The only other conceivable message would be âHavoc doesnât need changesâ, which I think the vast majority of the community would disagree with.
(2) The effort-reward ratio is way off. I think you can lump in the 16 GCD opener issue into this. There is a ton of effort and the (arguably) more difficult mover playstyle just to land less-than-mediocre DPS. Itâs beyond frustrating and has been for quite a long time now (perhaps since DFs1). I admittedly donât know a ton about other classes, but when I levelled a pally, I was appalled at how easy it felt given their DPS output. I havenât played it end-game though, so maybe I am way off. I can deal with the other Havoc issues if the payoff for all this effort felt much more rewarding, because then the rest just feels like typical rotation decision-making.
And my 2c on mover vs. non-moverâŚI actually enjoy the mover. Itâs incredibly unique, and though I think non-mover builds should be viable, itâd be a shame to lose the mover playstyle.
4 Likes
I agree with basically everything written in this post ⌠But regarding the mover vs non-move ⌠for me it boils down to this âŚ
I would agree with this sentiment from a theoretical standpoint ⌠But looking at it practically, the only way to properly reward the effort it takes to play havocâs rotation perfectly would be to make sure the damage output matched the effort compared to other classes ⌠which would mean they would need huge buffs and should be the #1 dps in all encounters.
But this will absolutely never happen. And it just makes havocâs âhigh-risk, low rewardâ style of play an outlier for all the wrong reasons.
Personally, Iâm not a fan of the mover build. Iâm not saying we need to go back to the two button spam from BFA, but surely a fun, unique middle ground can be found.
That said, there is one change I think could keep the mover-build fantasy but also reign it in ⌠Make Felblade a spammable gap closer ⌠remove the cooldown completely (or make it reset on every VR and FR) and take it off the global cd.
This alone would be a huge quality of life. It would allow us to not have to constantly reposition ourselves before we use VR or FR just to make sure we end up in the perfect spot and weâd be able to concern ourselves less with where we end up since weâd able to quickly return to where we started. If it means the damage needs to be nerfed (and other damage buffed to accommodate) or the cd remain for pvp, then so be it. But I would absolutely welcome this change.
6 Likes
FR is reset when using VR in the Aldrachi tree. That talent really needs to be in the Havoc tree and attached to Tactical Retreat. Otherwise, I feel like it resets enough on its own that it doesnât need to be reset by FR.
Inertia needs to be toned down to something like 10%, and then put the damage lost during the burst into our sustained.
1 Like
Thanks for write up here, Atrayen. I agree with basically everything.
Aldrachi needs itâs current iteration entirely deleted, and I hope blizzard strongly considers using the basically universally loved DF S3/4 tier set bonuses instead.
Keeping movement for damage seems VITAL to me in a world where we have 13 melee specializations in the game, and at present only one of them has this kind of play style. It does, however, feel like it needs to really be able to perform BETTER than non movement options for Havoc, rather than only barely keeping pace with some specs and getting outclassed by others.
Hit the nail on the head.
Not sure I agree with your solutions, though. The issue with the playstyle is not running out of movement options. Thatâs why Dash of Chaos is a trash talent that does nothing to help the playstyle. The issue is that moving on itself causes friction. The only way of helping is removing or limiting that movement.
I proposed ways to mitigate this playstyle (cooldowns to remove movement, or talents to make Fel Rush stop when hitting a target would be some ideas), but this is inherently whatâs wrong with the whole playstyle.
It canât be rewarding if you account for balance, and itâs always harder by default.
1 Like
itâs a bit more minor, but i do find it annoying that the one spec in the game with a movement rotation has one of the âyou must stand here to get the benefitâ group defensives. Why is one of the 2 specs in the game that can use the ability also the only spec in the game that often loses damage to stand in it? It just feels bad, and thatâs coming from someone who usually wants a movement build.
Aside from just reworking Darkness (which i wouldnât be opposed to), my first thought would be to add a talent like paladins and death knights got for consecration/d&d that adds a small grace period for when the demon hunter leaves darkness. Just a couple seconds to dash/flip out and get back in without worrying about taking extra damage.
Ideally it would replace one of the darkness talents, since darkness really shouldnt be split into 2 talents to get it to 3 minutes. It would also be great if it wasnt competing with all of the throughput in the bottom of the tree. Slap on an edgy name thatâs also a pop culture reference like âMolded by Darknessâ and boom, problem solved.
4 Likes
Itâs also kinda funny that one of the most mobile specs, spend a long time rooted with Eye Beam casts.
Also found it ironic always. Eye Beam casts have killed me more than once through the years, specially with Blind Fury.
1 Like
You specifically do not want to stand in darkness anyways because it hides every swirly in the game. How is it not just a buff like shout at this point Iâll never know and donât get me started on the 5 min cd
7 Likes
This thread has a lot of good points and I really hope blizzard actually looks at this thread.
Now for me I hope a non-mover build would be viable without having to deal with uptime on a mob/boss. Right now either you take a movement build which adds some uptime loss, extra awareness of position for FR/VR, and tracking inertia. Where a low-mover build still includes having to weave VR into the rotation and keep uptime on a mob/boss for the CDR talents.
Feel the class is getting more and more complex with little gain in damage. Each xpac / season havoc starts out initially well but slowly as other classes get buffed or reworked the class slowly slides down the charts and gets forgotten about. DH as a whole feels like it is going to be an unneeded raid class with how they are nerfing the debuff coming into TWW
7 Likes
I agree with all the points here, I seriously think Blizzard needs to consider a third spec for DH, fitting so many builds into one Havoc spec, at this point is assanine. What Iâm generally having a problem with is that we are the very LAST class to get any kind of changes. Its been that way since what Shadowlands? And when we do get changes, its only to shut us up, a great example of this, is Dragonflight where they did a soft rework of our talents and gave us some things back as well a baking things into talents/spells. It certainly did its job, it shut us up for a considerable time, take into the account the godly tier set we got for Dragonflight S3 where we literally got free Throw Glaives.
I called it on Jedithâs video with this new tier set in that of, we are doing nothing, but fishing for procs, and nothing more. This isnât a innovative tier set, it doesnât work well (in my opinion) with the hero talents, if they were going to make these hero talents amazing, the tier sets should have also been developed to further empower them. For instance, it would be flippin awesome, if on a proc of a Blade Dance reset, it also gives us a Demonsurge proc, or it reduces the CD of Eye Beam.
At the end of the day, our talents were rushed, they are re-using old âtalentsâ from Shadowlands and basically baking them into the spec. Its nothing new, nothing innovative. And yet here we are, being forced to do this 16 GCD opener, just to maximize our multipliers in damage. That is more work for us then what another class has to do.
If we really want changes, we need to be upfront with Blizzard about, no more beating around the bush, we just tell them, fix the damn class. Period⌠And also play your own damn game. Because I know they dont.
6 Likes