Have enough data for ST buffs yet?

Classes Monk
21

You can’t discount the data from 5 months which also includes the “buffs” which still show WW on the bottom.

Let’s hope you never run a company if you think discounting current data and 5 months past data some how out weighs a single data point… which also has us in the bottom 5/6 depending on the source.

Anyway man, run wild with monk. I’ve unsubbed and will just be lurking here and there until my time runs out. I’m not paying a company to out play bads but still get out dps’d because they play a dev favorite class.

And for my businesses summer is actually our peak time for man hours. So playing is limited but profits are high.

Babs I actually don’t dislike you as a person, I just dislike how you let your minions shut people down. You never step up to shut down their bulling and for the supposed “leader” of the monk community if anyone should shut down that nonsense, it should be you. Especially, since most of it, is started on your discord.

1 Like
22

I mean, you can discount data from 5 months when its no longer relevant and there’s current data available, its not perpetually relevant. Blizzard looked at that data you posted and gave us a 3.5% ST buff, so now they’ll be looking at current data after that ST buff to decide if more is necessary.

We may not like that it happens this way, but it is how it happens.

1 Like
23

If this was a vacuum sure. Throw out the last 5 months of data and start fresh.

But it is not.

We play a game in a shared space with other specs getting buffs based on the last 5 months of data that already out perform WW monk. Mages are getting buffed based on the last 5 months of data, hunters are too, DH’s buffs, DK’s buffs, and the list goes on. Know which spec is not getting buffs based on the last 5 months of data?

WW monk isn’t.

We all compete for the same raid spots and m+ spots. You can’t consider a class in a Vacuum when the spots are limited and other dps just bring more dps to the table.

I don’t recruit for my competition team (martial arts, not this video game) in a vacuum. I recruit based on results. If you can’t pull your weight in your weight category then you’ll be replaced by the person who can.

If WW doesn’t start pulling it’s weight then we can expect to be sat.

24

The classes that got buffed most recently got buffed based on current data, it was justified looking at last week’s data, just like a buff of WW is not justified looking at last week’s data. Its not a vacuum, its a new partition with things changing, like tier sets shaking things up.

I can’t follow your humble brag analogies and see how they’re relevant. Its a new tier with new boss fights, new tier bonuses, and a bunch of spec tuning up and down. You can’t compare this week to 5 months ago as both equally relevant.

2 Likes
25

So you have some inside track to the devs that show this was based on a single data point?

Like you personally speak with them?

You can show your evidence on how this isn’t related to the last 5 months of data and blizzard made changes based on a single week of data instead of 5 months of data?

Or did you just make up a bunch of crap? I’m going to go with the crap.

Because I used to personally speak with J.A.B. and I personally have his email and the details as to his resignation. And I can tell you Blizzard just doesn’t do things with only a weeks worth of data and blizzard will also favor some specs/classes.

I can 100% confirm the correct email to JAB if you think you know it. I won’t put it out there but I will give a yes or no if you have it. Post it here or in the tier 3 forums that I know you also have access too but will keep this from most of the readers.

26

Its pretty easy to look at the first week of Aberrus data and see the classes that got buffs this week were below Windwalker. Here are buffs that were announced on May 12

Here’s the data that was available when they announced those buffs:

Each spec that got buffed was below WW on Normal

Only Elemental was above WW on Heroic

Elemental, Boomkin, and Frost DK were above WW on Mythic, but the sample size was super small, so its most likely the buffs were based on Normal and Heroic data

I don’t have some kind of inside track, but I do have the ability to look at the data objectively and base my thoughts on reality, not what I want reality to be.

2 Likes
27

You can’t even control your own discord, let alone become some kinda “leader” for the monk community. Other specs got buff’d based on 5 months of data and the worse spec of the all which is also the least played didn’t.

There is no way you can base data objectively, when you don’t have the inside picture.

Enjoy your life.

28

The images you linked above do not support the buffs that these classes received, just look at Beast Mastery Hunter during your time frame compared to the recent one. 5 months ago the data didnt support a buff, 1 week ago it did, and they got buffed, which demonstrates that they’re buffing based on current data, not outdated data.

Just like how 5 months ago the data supported WW getting buffed, which we did, and now the data doesnt support further buffing at the moment, so we haven’t gotten any.

You can keep attacking me and the Monk Discord, but given your propensity to attack the person you’re conversing with, its easy to understand why you may received what you viewed as a negative reaction.

2 Likes
29

Babs, I appreciate your work more than I can probably express in regards to analysis on the spec. Isn’t it a little depressing though that is the most attention the spec has ever gotten and we were at best mediocre and they designed the tree around flying guillotine and apparently ToK?

Whatever dev/devs are handling us don’t understand how to make a fun monk.

Personally, haven fallen in love with this spec in MoP, I’ve lost hope in the competence of the devs to handle the spec. It’s not about the damage, they can literally buff TOD as much, and as far as they want, it still won’t be fun and they’re idea of “Identity” is clearly off base when a significant chunk of our damage is coming from an AOE ability based on health and trinkets.

Requiring the spec to get 1. Singular trinket or 2. Craft a singular item, or 3. keep a 2 set 2 set to maintain damage on par with other specs is atrocious design. It will not allow other individuals to enter our community or have fun with the spec unless they can convince a bunch of other people to make them semi ok.

30

I agree, it can be very disheartening to be in the state we are in. It’s one I’ve spoken up about many times.

Unfortunately it’s a direction that many people asked for in many ways over time, and now we’re reaping the reward of past complaints that WW wasn’t fast enough or bursty enough, or that ToD wasn’t valuable enough; all complaints I’ve read many times over the years.

The stat problems are what drive me craziest because they should be simpler fixes than functional ones. The fact that Windwalkers continue to scale poorly expansion after expansion just sends me over the edge.

4 Likes
31

I guess that’s fair, While I don’t agree with you on the “most fun monk” (I really loved MoP and RJW and I know you like the more planning style of mid legion[which I will admit was also good]) I really hope they change tracks on us.

I will note we’re workable, but when you sit back and look at it… I’m just gonna go grab another beer…

It is kinda funny as well in recent memory the only time that we’ve been OP is when we literally had 4 set 2 set. Meaning a person that started that patch, wouldn’t actually get the full WW experience.

MoP was the only time we were OP based on our kit.

1 Like
32

Holy this whole thing seems to have gone off the rails I’m just saying we shouldn’t give the devs a break anymore just because they give us the equivalent of a “oh I know you but I forget your name” nod in the form of buffs like we just got.

Babs has done a great job building the community and WWs/Peak as a whole is an amazing one, and all the data he’s collected is top notch. I just disagree with the current thought process because mages and locks seem to get buffs or something every time they cry. I have been and will continue to post as much as I can to offset what feels like a significant lack of frustration in blizzards face about WW. But these are also just my death throes before quitting the game in 10.2 after ~16yrs because of these near constant problems that should in the current state at least be mended with a bandaid.

2 Likes
33

How about this data

I guess i’ve got one really simple question, why would you filter to “damage to bosses” in a raid with a glowing example of a patchwerk boss, in a raid full of bosses with cleave, and aoe?

Of course you would never ask your specs that are good at aoe to spec ST for a raid that has 7/8 bosses full of frequent, or close to permanent adds, in the case of kurog.

That’d be like saying to your Assassination rogue, “hey man, I know you have really high boss damage, and I know you’d lose 25% of your ST damage to do it, but could you please multidot every single add that spawns, while our havoc, and windwalkers talent out of 30% of their aoe damage to gain 4% ST damage for the boss? It’d really go a long ways towards killing this boss! thanks man!”

3 Likes
34

filtered to boss damage cause single target sustained dmg is the issue not aoe or cleave. We just need a better single target tree option. They could split the tree to give us the same aoe but make it cost aoe to buff our ST. Filtering to overall damage is a disservice to the argument because it skews the data too high.
If we do ~60k ST while the average class is doing ~90k (made up numbers) , but overall we do ~100k against the average class doing ~110k , it doesnt look as bad.
Also whoever this high and might babs guy is , you need to be knocked off your high horse. Quit being satisfied with being middle of the pack. If you are an advocate you’d find ways to back the argument instead of defending blizzard who has obviously long forgotten to care about WW. If WW is really bad for 5 months then mediocre for 1 month just to be out-scaled and be really bad again, I think that would be relevant to the conversation as to why they need to fix it. Im not here saying we need to be the best but when was the last time you saw 4 WW in a raid like you see 4 hunters or 4 warlocks.

ALSO - WW is the only DPS spec for monks, we dont have a secondary option like a lot of the classes that got buffed (excluding DH). So we would like our spec to be above middles so that way we can compete without having to bend our knee to tank or heal.

1 Like
35

So WW sucks in AoE / Cleave now.

And still sucks in Single Target.

So new raid and data point 2 shows WW did not improve. In fact now that we are seeing other classes gearing up, WW monk is getting dumpstered.

2 Likes
36

I think those graphs are misleading as it only considers mythic difficulty whereas majority of the class is still in normal/heroic.

I still believe monk aoe is at the top. Assault logs showcase that. Here is heroic 75+ percentile. Monks are rocking that fight.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#difficulty=4&dataset=75&boss=2682

Our st is still terrible and we’ll continue to drop to the bottom as the tier cycle goes on and everyone gets their bis going.

Look at any of the st fights like Kazz

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#difficulty=4&dataset=75&boss=2688

All 3 specs below us have another dps spec to pick from.(and they are all at the top) While I don’t like that ideology, it still exists and blizzard has mentioned it in the past.

37

The issues with our aoe aren’t very apparent on fights like Assault is partly the issue. I’d be willing to bet most run aoe ToD which is probably one of the biggest complains/issues causing them to be tip toeing with aura buffing us. There aren’t any fights to simulate it but our aoe is largely the same as last patch so looking at a fight like council is a good example where we are 6th from the bottom.

*just checked and yeah 85% are running aoe tod for assault and roughly half for heroic sarkareth

Our aoe only shines in scenarios when we can basically tod on CD in fights like assault or sarkareth, but then we take a fairly significant hit to our ST to be able to do add cleanup duty in that way.

38

FLS m+ build doesn’t even utilize tod and can keep up in damage to the tod/bdb build

1 Like
39

It can keep up in the first 2 weeks of the patch as we haven’t been fully outscaled yet*

40

So, the problem with just looking at the order of the colored bars is that it doesn’t tell you how much stronger/weaker a spec is, just that it is stronger or weaker than another spec. That’s why, for the past years, since the end of Tomb of Sargeras in Aug 2017, I’ve been pulling data every so often and looking at it statistically.

Looking at this data, Windwalker is getting close to the problem area.

Historically, the specs that have gotten buffs are ones that fall outside the “average range” on the 75th percentile. The “average range” is different for all contexts, but the one that I’ve found is mostly consistent with who gets buffs is looking at +/- 1 standard deviation (SD) below the mean.

Blizzard has been very good at sticking to this “cutoff” since the start of Shadowlands. For example, at the end of 10.0.7, Windwalker was 1.97 SD below the mean on Boss Damage, and Windwalker got ST buffs.

So, the current data from the past 1 shows that MM, BM, Arms, and Fire would be the current candidates for buffs, with WW getting very close and almost certainly falling more than 1 SD below the mean. At the end of 10.0.7, I predicted that Windwalker would be “good enough” through the end of May, and then fall low enough to need buffs, and it looks like my prediction is so far true. I expect that in 2 weeks Windwalker will fall below the 1 SD level and then hopefully receive the buffs that it will need to get back into the “average range”.

I understand this isn’t what people want to hear, and I’d love to be doing more damage right now, especially if that comes from stat scaling and Windwalker abilities instead of external sources. I just feel its important that people really understand the state of things rather than letting themselves get sucked into hyperbole and doomsaying, at least until there is doom to say, which should be soon.

2 Likes