PvP is dynamic. It’s a dynamic ceiling in D2. At least from the launch of the game to its development conclusion which was then still popular a decade after launch.
In D2 you only did PvE to get better at PvP. That’s something the D3 crew never understood. It blew my mind when Jay Wilson said FU PvP guy. Yeah that was a terrible look for the game right then and there.
PoE will suffer the same until GGG realizes that PvE alone cannot carry the game forward. Let’s put it this way. If FROM software made routine updates to Dark Souls in the form of new content, new weapons, new spells, etc that game would be far more popular than all of these isometric ARPGs. All because of the way PvP is integrated into the experience.
The problem is WoW was never really designed with PvP in mind originally, it’s simply not an intuitive system for PvP. Remember infinite sheeping? Infinite sapping? That was the extent of PvP on launch. It was never considered a serious thing. It was just a bit of fun. I mean, they discovered there was a PvP fanbase for the game, and have been bandaging and bandaiding the game for PvP ever since, but it’ll never be good, because it was never designed for it.
It’s just some fun to capture some objectives and whack other players, thats all.
I don’t think PvP is the sole answer. PvP is a component of the game. One enhanced by having a less instanced world.
The problem with WoW is it tries too hard to be a single player RPG. Playing alone on an endless gear treadmill like Diablo and PoE. Though WoW still does a far better job of P2P (PvP and Coop) than D3 ever did.
Sometimes I feel like they should’ve introduced something like the subway system in The Division. You all grouped up in the city, then went down into the sewers, and it generated a random dungeon for you built from existing assets.
I quite liked that in The Division. Because you were never sure what you were going to find.
Only thing I don’t like about M+ is the timer. … which is a big part of the system I suppose. I don’t generally play modes that have built in stress builders… That said I really like the escalating difficulty concpt M+ brings.
Couldn’t disagree more. M+ is the best addition to the game since 10 man raiding. Difficult, small group content as an end game progression path is amazeballs, and you’ll have to pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
I’m not saying the system is perfect, but being able to gear up from 5 man content is absolutely amazing. Having difficult, rewarding content is amazing. That’s why people love Mythic raiding.
Who hates m+? Bads who don’t understand the learning curve and raid-loggers who feel pressured to get their weekly chest. That’s it. If you don’t like difficult content and being ranked, m+ is not for you.
The people who hate IO are the same people who hated gearscore, because they hate transparency. They want to say “I know my class and I’m good enough to do this content” and have you accept that at face value. Gearscore was just an accumulation of item level. That’s all it was. It told group members ‘on average’ What power-band your armor was, without forcing group members to remember the loot lists of irrelevant raids. I could be like “oh, he’s Ulduar 10 normal man geared, he probably not good enough for my 25 man ICC speed clear pug”. IO is more of the same. “Says here you’ve never completed a +10 on time, probably not a great idea to bring you to a push group for my +15.”
It’s just transparency. Say it with me. Transparency. The Addon does not grey out the apply button. IO doesn’t prevent you from forming your own group with like minded people. What it does is prevents people from lying about their experience in order to get their weekly done at the expense of of someone else’s time and key.
Eh. If you don’t have a good IO, join a guild and do content with the guild. Blizzard has stated numerous times that Mythic+ is not intended to be as pug friendly as other content like LFR - it’s intended to be end-game content that raiders can do off raid night and get rewards… particularly the very high level keys.
Well its not toxic. With the system Io going around I completely understand why people would want to leave my soon to be failed key. Part of that reason is because they themselves are trying to push into higher keys to get better gear, and its something they enjoy, they gain nothing out of my low key other then a better score, and less failed keys = better score. Although its a jerk move to do, I understand and I don’t get “offended” I just accept my keys done and try again with another group.
I’ve ran into rude players, but no one id ever consider toxic while doing my keys.
And I understand on the other foot why people would want to use it, why would I want to invite someone whose only completed a plus 2? I don’t care if they have a high item level, I don’t care if they’re some retired PVP blizzcon champ. If they never done kings rest before, or Siege on Boralus then why bother? They won’t know the short cuts or what to expect with the weekly debuffs.
Personally if the WoW team is going to keep this current format, speed running dungeons. Then I don’t care if io stays. However if they remove the timer and rework it then id be much more happier seeing io leave.
I don’t support that addon nor use it, I know what classes/specs I avoid at all costs just from my personal experiences in Legion.
Sadly wow team decided to turn mythic keys into somewhat of a Esport (a boring one if you were to ask me, but opinion aside.) It creates a competitive atmosphere, much like Rated Arenas and RBG’s. People don’t want to lose, they wanna win they want to get as good as they can.
I wanna end by saying, if you’re worried or upset by toxic people in higher keys, just make some friends! Make a goal to eventually do higher keys like daily, you’ll meet some cool nice people that way. You can add them and set up times to regroup and go for the crown! Also you can join a guild that primarily focuses on mythic pluses, im pretty sure there are also discords out there as well for this kind of thing!
I think it’s partially the problem. The other part is key depletion, which makes it impossible to regroup and try again without having to take a step backwards first. MoP had a timer, but I didn’t mind it as much. Missed that interrupt? Ok, start over and try again.
You could literally change nothing about the system except that, and it would do wonders. You could still continue to push higher keys/get the fastest time until you literally can’t go any further, and you’re only limited by the amount of time you want to invest. Also would encourage people to stay and not bail right away, and it wouldn’t punish the smallest mistake (particularly late in the run).
Just my two cents though. I liked the MoP style and I don’t think it would be that hard to recapture that part of it.
I used to love spamming heroic dungeons. Trying out different roles, specs, etc. Seems like even in the normal and heroic dungeons, people are using the “go go go” tactics from mythic.
For example skipping a pull. A group of experienced players can do that, no problem. But in normals and even heroics there is a good chance that someone is going to accidentally pull that group and if the tank and healer are far up ahead, the group could wipe.
For another example, you die. Should you wait for a rez? No, run back noob! We don’t have time to get out of combat and rez your lazy rear. The noob doesn’t know how to get back because he was just following the group to get this far. He releases and tries to run back and runs into a pat that the group avoided, he gets lost or whatever and then drops group.
When people want to do challenging content where they will be punished for failure, they want to play with others at a similar level of experience. That is what this is about.
There are always people who are rude or immature when hiding behind pixels online, I think you might be conflating the two issues.
When you say starts to and eventually, are you saying we’ve already arrived at the point where it is impossible to have non-toxic conversations with strangers, or are you just predicting it will? I haven’t seen any trend in this direction at all.
GearScore never actually went away though did it? It got added into the base client, which stopped people complaining about it, because the whole idea became blizzard certified. Am I missing something here?
The timer is relaxed. It needs timer becoz it also checks the group’s DPS. You can have more than 1 tank or more than 1 healer but takes forever to beat it becoz of Poor DPS. The timer screens out such combo and also screens out Poor DPS of DPS’ers. Bring ilevel 400 DPS’ers to Mythic+10.
The criteria to pass a Mythic+ is just get High DPS and dont die… You dont need to chainpull. The reason why groups chainpulls becoz they have to catchup becoz of the Time Penalties they got from Group’s Deaths. Chainpull is great if the group can handle it. If you are not dying and your DPS is decent, the TIMER is pretty relaxed. You will make it without rushing.
Err… M+ is content that keeps many players busy. I know for sure it’s one of the things I love most about WoW right now. Mind you, I don’t even know what my IO score is.
It’s also a good idea to stop using terms that suggest you somehow know what “everyone” “all” or “people” are feeling. You don’t. Using blanket phrases like “People are bored sick…” don’t make your argument or idea any better, if anything it just makes the post more annoying because you’re claiming to speak on behalf of many possibly thousands of players when you absolutely do not have that role.
YOU are bored sick. YOU are having problems with IO. YOU are worrying about keys.
The issue is NOT M+. The issue is everything else surrounding it in terms of gear. Yes. Crafting should absolutely give players some competitive gear-- agreed! Raids should offer special kinds of gear that M+ does not offer. Some of the EP drops are an example of this, those belts with special powers and effects — they just need to make those powers extend outside of that raid tier.
As it stands, I see M+ as one of the absolute best additions to WoW. It accomodates both hardcore players with tons of time to play and players who only have an hour or 2 here and there.
I don’t have time for 4 hours in EP. But I do have an hour to try and get a +10 SoB done, including the time it takes to find a group. Both are challenging enough to keep me engaged and entertained – something heroic dungeons do not offer anymore.
Stop asking for things to be removed. Things must be added instead.