Has Sylvanas started forcibly creating Forsaken?

Lore Story Forum
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Jaina’s brother aside, I noticed something as I was farming for herbs in a little area of Stormsong near the shipyards where there are many Forsaken Rogues hanging out.

Upon killing them, they said things like ‘…thank you,’ and ‘finally…free.’ It made me do a bit of a double take since I’m so used to them sounding aggravated or spiteful as they breathe their last. Almost like…they didn’t choose this.

It reminded me of a toy given to Horde players after the Darkshore questline, Brynja’s Beacon, which states the following in the description: ‘it is said that only the most powerful can dominate the wills of the risen.’ Key word: dominate.

Maybe I’m reading a bit too much into it, but there seems to be more and more odd coincidences in this regard for me to just write it off. We’ve already seen Sylvanas forcibly raise Horde soldiers as mindless undead during the Battle of Lordaeron after telling Baine that victory is all that matters, which says to me that she’s become increasingly willing to follow in the footsteps of Garrosh and use anything to win, even if it’s morally repugnant and flies in the face of everything she once stood for.

And her forcible raising of Derrick Proudmoore to use as a weapon pretty much cemented that as fact. Which makes the death dialogue of the Forsaken Rogues in Stormsong that much more interesting…

If she is in fact forcibly recruiting Forsaken to bolster her forces, you have to admit it wouldn’t be a hard choice for Sylvanas at this stage especially considering that, canonically, the Alliance is winning the war after Dazar’alor. If she needed soldiers and had the means to raise them, I could easily see her internally rationalizing it to herself that victory is what matters, not the means by which it is achieved.

If true, it would make an interesting story dynamic to see just how many Forsaken are actually willing converts versus unwilling soldiers enslaved to the will of the Val’kyr or Sylvanas herself and just what that would mean to the Forsaken mindset if they found out about it.

Again, this is just a theory, take from it what you will and tell me your thoughts on the subject!

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I think the Darkshore Quests, as disgusting as they are, make it clear that only willing individuals are raised. That said, a desire for a second chance at living, does not necessarily mean loyalty to Sylvanas.

My personal interpretation of the lines from those NPCs is that undeath was not the second chance they were sold, and they’re glad to finally end it. That or they’re still loyal to the Alliance and didn’t like fighting them, but had no other option.

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You misunderstand. What they’re finally free of isn’t Sylvanas. They’re talking about the cold, heavy shackles of the Blizzard storyline.

Jokes aside, that’s really interesting. If that’s genuine, it’s a subtle bit of storytelling, and I’m tempted props to Blizzard for the idea. But then, I’m also skeptical. Why would Sylvanas be dominating these randos, but not the rebellious undead PCs, or any other number of undead characters? Derek’s storyline also suggests that mind control for Sylvie is tricky and difficult to do in secret, especially en masse to random soldiers.

Another possibility is that they aren’t mind controlled — they’re just very conflicted about being Forsaken. We know lots of characters in the Goldenverse are uncertain at best about the value of undead life. Maybe these rogues just find death to be a release.

Or maybe it’s an oversight and Blizzard is doing a naughty with thoughtlessly recycled voice work.

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I’m pretty sure random Forsaken NPCs have said similar things on death before this.

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To say that players are given mixed messages on the subject is a vast understatement.

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I feel like Undead NPCs have said this in previous expacs. It seems like something old, and the recent threads about it make me wonder.

Are these new lines, and I am suffering from some Mandela Effect/false memory?

Or are they old recycled lines that no one payed attention to, until it fit their personal narrative?

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Every undead sylvanas has raised since Cata with the singular exception of Zelling has been forced. It’s never been right, and it’s certainly not new.

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Except, nope, the Darkshore quest line firmly establishes that this is not true for the Forsaken that the Val’Kyr raise. At least, not for those that are conscious.

To the OP: keep in mind that most Forsaken were raised against their will by Arthas using the Helm of Domination, just as Sylvanas was.

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If this was the case Voss would have never freaked out when raised.

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Voss was no doubt willing to come back. She had a strong desire to continue her mission as part of the Scarlet Crusade. She had no desire to be undead.

Just because a soul is willing to come back doesn’t mean it understands the process of it’s return.

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Personally, I always imagined Forasken who utter that sort of death quote to be 1 of 2 groups.

They despise being undead, but persist regardless out of a sense of loyalty towards Sylvanas for freeing them and giving them some semblance of an identity. Thus, their final death is their dept fulfilled. They can finally rest.

That, or a bit more pessimistic, they despise being undead, want to die, but are unable to bring themselves to commit suicide. So they serve in the military with the hope of fulfilling their death wish.

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One Val’kyr says “willing souls” in regards to literally no corpses around, and everybody thinks only people who wanna be raised get raised. Does nobody remember Deathknell? Or… Derek, who literally happened less than a patch ago?

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That’s a good point.

The Valkyr say no body equates to no willing souls. As if almost any body with a soul lingering near by can be made willing - with the proper conditioning.

Like Sylvanas and her vision of an afterlife.

Was that real? Or was she made willing through fear of a false afterlife?

You bring up a good point that might absolve Sylvanas and point to a truer enemy.

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It’s “willing” because Blizzard says so, despite everything appearing to the contrary since Cataclysm, really. The only explanation is that the Valkyr have a chat with each person they’re about to raise, and manipulate them into coming back willingly, or alter their perspective and mindset enough that it might as well be willing.

These are all Scourge Valkyr, them only being able to raise willing souls can only be a restriction Sylvanas placed that she can remove at will, otherwise every single undead raised by them when they were Scourge doesn’t make any sense at all.

And that’s a restriction that is told, not shown. In Silverpine you kill humans, and then raise them, and they immediately praise Sylvanas and go off to fight. You have the remainder drinking worgen blood to avoid becoming undead, as if there’s no choice at all, and if they die, and get raised, they’ll be another Forsaken soldier.

With night elves it’s actually less egregious, ironically, though much more in your face. That of course also depends on numbers as well, how many she’s actually managed to raise into her service besides Sira and Delaryn. If hundreds of night elves died in Darkshore, and she’s only managed to raise maybe a dozen, it’s passable. Night elves abhor undeath, to the point where even night elf death knights were considered borderline iffy back in Wrath. But a handful being willing to come back can be worked with.

Though Sira still doesn’t make any sense.

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I am just going to say its all forced.

Why else would a guy that you just murdered willingly join your side and then help you kill his fellows?

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The idea of a false afterlife being shown to them, tricking them, is an interesting one. Honestly I’ve said a few times that instead of this faction war stuff we should have had Sylvanas realize the afterlife is divvied up between all these death gods abusing their power, and for her to wage war against them.

The valkyr faking her out from the start would not absolve her, of course, but it would be an actually decent explanation for why both she and those raised since Cata come back willingly. Barely.

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Or, and this is the more likely explanation, it was turn of phrase that literally just means “there’s nothing for me to raise here.” Keep in mind, the Val’kyr TRY to raise the Night Elves who turn into wisps. This probably isn’t to say that only willing people can be raised, but more that we’ve never seen Night Elves - a race of people whose souls literally leave their body to start fighting again on a regular basis, unlike humans - raised.

I also fail to see how that would absolve Sylvanas. Even if the afterlife she saw was falsified, she still believed it was real and acted accordingly.

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Yet again I wish that the power of the Black Moon meant those using its power couldn’t be raised… but that would force Blizzard to remember its own night elf lore.

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From what I recall, these lines were happening even in Stormheim during Legion. I think all it shows is the varied nature of why some people choose to live on. Some don’t want to die (we have that rogue who claims he didn’t want to die). Some like these might have just been too scared to commit what is essentially suicide and are glad someone else took them out.

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She’s only repeating much of what she said when she was still alive and wearing a Darnassus banner.