And that would be completely fine. The main problem isn’t that gearing through raids is slow, but that the gearing process is kinda invalidated because M+ gearing is faster and gives better rewards for lower difficulty.
Doesn’t have anything to do with RL and I never even said that. What a weird straw man.
Ok man, whatever you say.
Btw RL is raid leader… just in case that was lost on you.
Ah, that clears it up, thought you meant something else.
I took a break from Mythic raiding this season, but “just change the guild lol” wasn’t an option, because as I said, most Mythic guilds had this as a requirement. It was expected.
We cleared it the first or second day of the patch. This tier is pretty easy compared to most recent raids.
As did we, but are you an AOTC guild or a Mythic raid guild doing their first heroic clear.
Hmm apparently achievements don’t update unless you log onto the character or something. Pretty average tier 6 hour CE guild.
It’s been exactly this since Nighthold.
Raid completes 90% of its gearing through mythic+ in the first 3 weeks then you are left with a slow gear tail and primarily fighting skill checks.
I’m not saying it’s better or worse this way.
A single boss fight + trash is maybe 10 minutes. The entire raid is usually speed farmed by week 2 or 3, even in PUGs. Here’s some facts:
The highest ilvl item from running a key is a HERO track item. A single dungeon takes around 20-30 minutes at the hero track reward level of a key. A raid such as Amirdrasil maybe takes an hour or an hour and a half total to fully clear right now. I did a full PUG in under 2 hours in like week 2 or 3. If you do the math, it’s massively more beneficial in terms of time spent to raid over doing a key. Key loot tables are a mess and there’s only 2 pieces of loot dropped per run.
Mythic raiding gives the best gear hands down every patch, and it’s the ONLY mythic track gear drops with out using a vault. It is also the ONLY source of tier that can drop outside of a vault or using the catalyst.
Raid gear is targetable and has a realistic path to obtaining the gear. Dungeon gear is part of a massive loot table and completely random with a max of 3 slots available per week through the vault only if you want the highest level.
I’d say raiding is MUCH MUCH more beneficial. If you notice, the top key pushes are using their BIS raid items. Almost every key player I know makes sure to clear raid every week for juicy items that will help in keys. Please stop this narrative that M+ kills raids. I’d say M+ saved the game in terms of preventing the player base from simply raid logging every week. Since Wrath I remember my guild never being on, except for raid nights.
I don’t think so, I’ve received relatively few useful pieces directly from dungeons and the vault only gives a single piece each week.
One thing Blizz could do to add a bit more parity though would be to increase the ilvl of raid vault gear. Something like this:
LFR Vault: Rank 1 Champion gear
Normal Vault: Rank 1 Hero gear
Heroic Vault: Rank 1 Myth gear
Mythic vault: max ilvl Myth gear
M+ and raiding are interweaved at this point.
Gear from either content greatly benefits your progress in the other content. Raiding is more time efficient and generally has BIS gear, while M+ provides opportunities to fill out your weaker slots with infinite runs.
I wouldn’t complain if I had to run less M+, but anyone that thinks it usurped raiding probably doesn’t do either very much. Raid gear greatly helps you with getting 20s done, and normal/heroic this season was clearable on day 1 before you had much time to even grind M+.
The general pattern is raiders will full clear normal/half of heroic on day 1-2, and use that gear to clear M+ keys higher than normal to fill out a few more gear slots, and then clear the later half of heroic later in the week or the week after.
A big part of what allows the easier heroic clears is the entire raid being decked out in mythic+ gear not obtainable from the heroic raid, which means 6/6 heroic track upgrades (aspect crests), 486 crafted gear (aspect crests), and weekly 489 vault gear.
Virtually anyone with an item > 476 got it from mythic+ except for 1-2 very rare drops.
For fun I looked up the log of your latest heroic Fryakk kill. It had 21 people and 18 of the 21 had an average item level higher than what is possible to obtain from the heroic raid.
Do you really think people clearing +20 keys in the first weeks of the season aren’t able to go into the heroic raid and clear it? I get you’re saying we already out geared the content going into the fight, but it’s not like the gear was free. Also, that doesn’t ruin raiding in any way. If YOU wish to treat heroic raids as a form of progression by all means do it. People slamming keys and getting the highest ilvl possible are generally focused on keys or Mythic raiding as their end game content. I could also argue that raiding ruins key progression since it a gate due to tier drops and BIS trinkets/top ilvl items.
Im mainly saying the difficulty to reward ratio is between raids and keys are pretty far apart.
The top mythic+ key in the world right now now has about 7 combined mythic raid items total for 5 people by the way.
Out of 16 slots per person x 5.
I might have been blessed with being a DK, but I don’t remember the issue being very prevalent in Legion. Like yes, some good loot to be had, but didn’t feel very demanding to maintain running.
Then again in ToS I was Unholy and our BiS legiondaries where shoulders and chest so I was hard locked on my 4 set so in total 7 slots were on lockdown when you include weapons.
That being said yeah, obviously legion started the M+ loot train so maybe people were just slow to pick up on that.
Either way this is the main gripe I have with M+. Dungeon relevancy is great, but as someone who was always focused on raiding I want dungeons to fall out of relevancy in favor of raid gear eventually, and it doesn’t feel like it does, or at least didn’t when I was raiding. Not sure of what current ilevel caps are between M+ and mythic is though.
Both mythic+ and the mythic raid cap at 489 at mythic track.
Exceptions are the very rare Fryakk trinkets (496) and the Legendary Axe 500.
But if you are in a Mythic raiding guild, M+ will not invalidate the gearing from the Mythic raid, since you’d only be getting Hero track gear from the end of the dungeon and the choice of one Mythic track gear for clearing at least one M+18.
As such, if you are in a Heroic raiding guild and they require maximizing your ilvl by doing M+ each week, would it then not be possible to find a guild that is more casual and does not require this?
Are you also against split raids? Just curious if you think any good progression guild isn’t farming the crap out of gear before they touch a raid. The point is to run over content as fast as possible. If you want to gear slower, or drag content out for months for no reason other than being drip fed loot you’re free to do that.
I’d say M+ opens up accessibility to raiding. Before keys when I did progression raiding it was a requirement to have at least two alts, and highly encouraged to have even more. Running raids to feed gear into main characters so they can all come together and steamroll. LMK how many PUGs would be accessing raid if that was still the main progression path. M+ = accessibility for the people who want to log in, kill stuff, get loot and touch grass later.
I greatly enjoy mythic+. I want better parity between the two is all.
And split raiding applies to like 8 guilds in the world.
Most hall of fame guilds even don’t run splits. It requires actively sabatoging a characters gear solely to feed a different character.
Pugs would still pug the raid with or without mythic+. Loot based lockouts (rather than raid ID) and cross realm/faction is what facilitates that.
Raiding has always sucked.
You’d be surprised how sweaty non HOF CE guilds and even non-CE guilds can be. Especially in the past when it was much more normal to do. I’d say since M+ has been introduced that sort of culture is almost entirely gone, and that’s a good thing.
IMO raid should drop 2x more loot per boss than it does. M+ is already unrewarding in that you can run 4-5 runs w/ out getting loot, then just get a useless junk item. It’s very difficult and time consuming to target items you want. M+ loot is great for the initial generic ilvl boost though.