Borrowed power and hidden templates are getting out of hand and are an illusion to cover up laziness within class design?
Lemme explain.
Before when we got new abilities in a new expansion is was a slight utility/damage/mechanic change to a spec. The new ability was designed around the spec, now the spec is designed around the ability.
Im tired of this 1 shot gimmick/borrowed power thing. For example, I prefer Ret to have the option to play Ret based around Ret abilities, not to bundle up every damage profile into 2-3 borrowed power abilities. Wings to be a “go” and weaving in procs pertaining to Rets core abilites. This PvP feels different and off. Its like everyone uses their goes (borrowed power that’s forced onto everyone because its the only thing that holds up good numbers) then just chills til goes are ready again. I understand thats kind of how it used to be before borrowed power, but its not the same when your spec is designed around the borrowed power because with those moves on CD typically nothing actually happens so people tend to play it safe and wait for all of those abilities to come back and it makes for some boring gameplay. Thats just a side effect on PvP but it expresses lazy spec design as a whole, for PvP and PvE.
Its like most of the classes/specs have no damage profiles outside of their borrowed power. I don’t feel like a Ret I feel like a gimmick.
Another example is Feral, back then rip just did damage, now you have have line it up with 3-5 modifiers for it to feel the same. Rip is fun and defines my interest in playing feral, now we have the green fairy dust, and damage taken from rip just to be thrown into a separate 45 second cd bleed. Its an illusion, people think theyre getting more buttons and growing their power but really that button existing nerfs everything else. Im not against pressing more buttons, im against nerfing things just to buff them with another 3-4 buttons/globals. Stealing damage profiles from the core of the spec to toss into 3-4 unnecessary globals is trash imo and takes away from class/spec identity.
Borrowed power is bad because it drains every other aspect and flow of the class/spec. The core Ret skills (TV, Judgement and Wings ect) cant be as powerful because its either have those core abilities powered up or borrowed power and blizzard chose the lazy borrowed power path. Again new abilities used to add on an additional mechanic and a small % of damage and went with the flow of the spec. Now its literally what makes the spec.
What I mean by “hidden templates” is that youre still funneled down into a very one sided predetermined path. On the surface theres multiple playstyles/paths, deep down only 1 performs or in rare cases 2 perform to be on par with everything else. The whole “it dont matter if youre not in the top 1% raiding guild or 3’s bracket” line is a blanket argument because the performance differences are extreme, if it wasnt extreme you wouldnt see a everyone playing that one build, or something very close to it. That argument was valid when it made a small difference. Its not just a 1 to 5 percent difference. There is one playstyle, fun or not youre playing it or getting out performed in every aspect of the game. Is it fun because you win or is it fun because you genuinely enjoy the process of winning?
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I’m confused. Are you talking about the talent tree?
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Overall class and spec design. Yeah, talent trees included because that is our only way to manipulate a spec for the synergizes and playstyles we want.
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That’s not borrowed power. Talents stay with your character. Borrowed power is something you lose based on something temporary. Like gear or systems that are removed or replaced later.
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Talent trees have always been a little linear since Vanilla because people like to copypasta template trees. At least now it’s easier to change talents and stuff.
Class and spec design for some classes are actually pretty good like rogue, but kinda bad for others. Like for mage and warlocks, if you want to progress in high level content, most will only want Arcane and Demo right now so if you hate those 2 specs, you need to suck it up or reroll. Actually feels bad.
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Okay, so what are the core abilites on our talent trees now? Copy and pasted borrowed power from previous expansions. Doesnt matter if the UI displays it on a weapon, necklace or a talent tree. Its still a directional pull from a specs core design.
Wait, so when people say borrowed power you think they literally mean borrowing? Like roleplay? Ive always thought it was a play on words to ultimately express they have an issue with their already smooth, enjoyed and functional spec being redesigned around a new gimmick ability.
Regardless of definition and technicalities… its obvious its not about literally borrowing power. Lmao I guess the gimmick and taking from a specs core went over your head.
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Yeah. That is exactly what it means to most people. Temporary power systems that we “borrow” for one expansion/season and then are removed.
Examples include artifact weapons/artifact power, azerite gear/Azerite power, covenants/soul binds, and legendaries…
Some people woud also include tier sets since they are seasonal/tier specific
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so what your complaining about isn’t borrowed power.
however I also kinda agree with you, so many classes these days seem to be built almost entirely around their burst windows. and I don’t think thats fun or good game design neceserily.
like having a burst window is fine, and you also want that to feel impactful when you can get it to pop off, and if it was like a 20-30% increase for a few second, hey that would be great cuz you still have decent sustain. but instead what you see is most classes being built around burst windows that are closer to 200-300% their normal damage… which means to keep things remotely balanced, their ‘normal damage’ winds up getting driven into the dirt.
a burst window should be a nice bonus, pushing you ABOVE your 100% when used properly, it shouldn’t be a requirement of your base rotation just to GET you to 100%
a few specs here and there having that… okay, cool, allows for a variety of play styles, but it feels like -every- spec is built that way now.
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I mean I get that. Its just redressed and served up as something else.
What im talking about is the introduction of new abilities that take from our spec to be what they are. Ill use Feral as an example again. Like Feral Frenzy. They nerfed rip behind the scenes then took some of that damage and threw it into Feral Frenzy. Another global. Over time this process is taking more and more away from the spec.
This vanilla copy and paste reference you speak of more applies to this example, in my opinion. With the new trees theres like 2 or 3 rip modifier that are passive but you have to earn them by leveling up. Obviously the early game rip is the nerfed version, because end game youll be able to revert the nerfs with those modifiers. Im okay with that, its a progressive system that lets your earn your core damage profiles.
Theres a difference in letting you progressively earn your specs core abilities, and a difference in taking from your spec core abilities for another global and forced different damage profile.
What does it take away? If they take 1 ability from a previous expansion and add it into the talent tree how is that borrowed power or even a bad thing?
I totally get what the point of your thread is trying to be, but its a nothing burger and Blizzard will keep doing it.
What does it take away? Think about it, for that to exist they need to take away from other damage profiles.
Its not just 1 either. Theres Feral Frenzy (artifact weapon), Swarm (cov ability), theres the Zerk talent that turns direct damage into bleeds (legendary) and the one that makes your dots tick 25% faster (another legendary) all of that only takes more away from Ferals core and adds more globals. At some point youre not playing feral, youre playing cooldowns. Its not the same as before like WoD or MoP when you would wait for CDs. You were still effective outside of CDs because all of your damage wasnt channeled into 5 different cooldowns. I wouldnt say its a bad thing if it was just 1.
In PvP more globals to “unerf” something is a rip off. In PvP to stack all damage into 5 globals isnt fun because globals feel awful already, and to produce the current burst windows specs have in PvP is absurd.
In PvE, that green fairy dust just ruins the whole Feral vibe for me. I just think overall in PvP and PvE those copy and pasted borrowed powers suck. In terms of immersion and mechanical gameplay.
Do you see now how thats a bad thing?
Sounds like ability bloat is your issue, just takes you multiple paragraphs to spell it out.
I do agree to some extent, I love playing feral and the main combo point users don’t have the punch they used to. And of course that is due to having more abilities in the rotation.
I don’t think we are being fooled in any way. They are trying to keep the game evolving or at least make it look like a change. I like the talent trees, but they unfortunately just took all the abilities over the years and tossed them all in. I was hoping for more of the base abilities and passives with maybe a few new passives and like one new ability. Not all the old ones.
I mean yeah, I could understand that.
What is it that you think makes people frown apon the term “borrowed power” though? Because I think whatever that reason is gives it its meaning.
And who knows people could be upset about borrowed power for roleplay reasons like “My character is supposed to be strong in the world of Azeroth, but to be strong it requires foreign power”
But I believe the hype in borrowed power complaint is blizzard messing with peoples specs, you know the big picture, read between the lines.
Idk how that person could think I meant a temporary power with the given context.
You know, you actually can build ret how you want with this new talent tree. Going heavy into passives and baseline skill buffs for ret isn’t the patchwork sim perfect build, but also you don’t need perfection to play any of this content. It is all pure mechanics checks, you can kill even heroic raid and +20 keys with all grey parses, and the ret build you say you want doesn’t even grey parse. Use the compare feature on warcraftlogs, that build you want isn’t even that uncommon.
Borrowed power in the context of WoW has always meant the same thing. To miss use it just causes confusion. There is no borrowed power in DF, just level up and get gear is all you need to gain power.
Professions are the new extra grind this expansion, and that is optional.
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I feel like you said a lot of words and at the same time, said absolutely nothing of substance.
Let me try to parse your OP…
I can’t. It’s just rambling nonsense. I have zero idea what you’re talking about.
…
If you’re keeping it, it’s by definition not borrowed.
Hey, some people arent as comprehensive as you.
Yes, ability bloating and what comes with it.
I say fooled because for the most part its shadow lands with a different UI. Oh wait, but you can get the the night fae and necro lord abilites all at once so its better. Nopes, now your core abilities are nerfed even more so you can have both. It looks like an improvement but its not. Its just a nerf to why you play feral, and a buff to keep Greg the designers ideas alive.
How do you feel about Crusader strike and Divine Storm being talents in Wrath classic?
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