Guild UI and Permissions, Redux Part II

Community General Discussion
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Since the mega thread regarding the new guild permissions seems to be in imminent danger of being "eliminated" by Blizzard, some of the long time posters have decided that making an alternate thread that will (hopefully) be "migrated" when the new forum system goes live would be prudent.

We are a group of Guild Leaders that have been more than dissatisfied with the recent changes in our guilds that Blizzard forced on us without any warning beforehand.

Please see:

07/17/2018 11:18 AMPosted by Osiris
> New Permissions UI: https://i.imgur.com/v7WlrcH.png
> Old Permissions UI: https://i.imgur.com/Fi55wGh.png


We have had some indication over the last several months, (including some amazing help and input recently from an MVP) that Blizzard may actually be listening to us, but we don't know for sure.

Why?

Sadly, Blizzard often lacks simple communications skills.

What we'd like is a simple response to our continued requests for answers.

Basically, will this issue be fixed, reverted, etc...or are we up the proverbial creek regarding the new guild permissions / ui as far as Blizzard is concerned?

A link to the original 100+ page mega thread:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165?page=1

Thank you.
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Exceptional. I second this. Please Blizzard, at least return the option of using our former guild permissions.
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Please restore the guild permissions or give us reasons why they have been changed without warning. Guilds are suffering, please help us.
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Having one "officer" rank with every permission is really, really, really inconvenient (at best, and ruinous at worst), and as reported in the megathread, has stopped some guilds from even recruiting.

Over 100 pages of polite, descriptive, and informed feedback was provided, with a lot of good ideas to improve guilds, but if the permissions aren't returned to their previous functionality, it's all moot, and the desire to have the permissions and ranks once again fully customizable was the issue most oft repeated. Repeatedly. Again and again. Like almost literally a thousand times, guys.
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Please Blizzard. Give us control back.
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*stamps with yes stamp*

Seriously, who thought the new one was better.
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The current implementation of guild officer permissions is untenable for our Guild's needs. It is restricting growth and counter to what we require for our many-leveled nuances that we desire in creating effective officer ranks of varying privileges and responsibilities.

For a detailed theory on why this is bad, please google "Principle of Least Privilege" or suggest in a forum thread that random blizzard employees all of a sudden be given complete access to the WoW source code with unlimited programming authority (because apparently that would be "very bad").

Either revert the change entirely or offer a choice for guild masters to enable "simple" or "advanced" permissions controls.

Thank you for your time.
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11/11/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Druunah
Fumel.

Please don't give up.
I will...see what I can do. I'll go through my post history and see if I can bring some of the better posts here. I hope I don't get in trouble for making a bunch of posts in a row (or get this thread locked because of doing so).

Here is an especially relevant post:
08/23/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Tarayn
"Let us know what problems you're having [regarding guild permissions] and we'll do what we can to solve those problems" - Ion during Q&A

Please, someone tell Ion:
"Thanks for asking. Read posts here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20765907165 "

Guess he isn't aware of this thread or he wasn't honestly requesting input...
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Adding my voice to the requests to please revert/restore the granular controls to guild permissions. Our guild does not use the Communities feature and we have no plans to do so.

Blizzard, if you have to keep the current changes (for whatever reasons), then at least offer guilds the choice to go back to what it was before. Thanks.
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Another pertinent post:
08/23/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Irannia
Okay... So, I think it's time for another TLDR.

I just got done listening to the Q&A, and reading some of the responses here. Lets not bash and be constructive. I know I've participated in my fair share of "I don't like this, and **bleep** aren't listening."

The following was stated regarding this thread.

_________________________________________________________________

Question posed:

Are you going to put guild permissions back to how they were before? The current system is very restrictive and makes it harder to run a guild, which is arguably the back bone of all communities in WoW.

Note: These are not exact quotes.

Ion's Response:

So, I don't think it's arguable at all. Guilds are absolutely the back bone of communities in WoW.

We've made a couple of changes already based on feedback. Players in guilds again have the ability to edit their own public notes by default. We've added the ability to change rank permissions for guild leaders to have someone that can't speak in guild chat, if you want to have a rank that's just muted. If people are getting into an argument, or if someone's being super annoying and want a way in de-escalating that situation without kicking them from the guild, you can once again do that.

We are still listening and looking for feed back on specific things that are missing, that are helpful in running and/or moderating your guild, and we'll add functionality where possible.

The question is, why did this change at all? Why mess with something that wasn't broken?

Well, in order to make communities work and in order to make guilds work on the community infrastructure, this whole system is actually going through the battlenet back bone for battlenet groups, and the way that’s constructed has a lot of upsides. Including: voice chat integration seamlessly, persistent chat history. So, If you log into a middle of a conversation you can see what people are talking about before you logged on.

That meant that affectively reconstructing every bit of the old guild logic on these new foundations. So, in doing that we looked at statistics and data on how often these different customizations and options were used. Many of them were used very uncommonly, and so in the interests of simplifying and stream lining the whole process, so there aren't a million checkboxes when you are looking to set up your guild permissions, we consolidated a few of those under the general umbrella category of are you an officer, this is what an officer can do.

The right way to get this changed, we are open to re-adding functionality where it makes sense. I think it's just a question of getting us feedback, helping us understand what value you were getting running your own guilds, your own communities, and we'll see what we can do.

Lore:

And one of the things we like to do. It's kind of an opportunity to do stuff like this is… a lot of times there's a feature or a function that people were using to accomplish something in a round about way. We can find out what was reason you needed this before… Oh, wait we can just give you a direct way in a feature that does just that. So, that's something we can consider as well.

Ion:

Totally.

Let us know the problems that you're having, and we'll do what we can to solve those problems.

___________________________________________________________________

Okay.... time to break this apart.

**We are still listening and looking for feed back on specific things that are missing, that are helpful in running and/or moderating your guild, and we'll add functionality where possible.**

Really? There are 67 pages of feedback. That is approximately 1,300 RESPONSES. How much more do you want? What is it you are wanting from us? I myself have added.. 3 or 4 posts of very long detailed descriptions of what I would like to see and what has affected my guild.

**The question is, why did this change at all? Why mess with something that wasn't broken?

Well, in order to make communities work and in order to make guilds work on the community infrastructure, this whole system is actually going through the battlenet back bone for battlenet groups, and the way that’s constructed has a lot of upsides. Including: voice chat integration seamlessly, persistent chat history. So, If you log into a middle of a conversation you can see what people are talking about before you logged on.

That meant that affectively reconstructing every bit of the old guild logic on these new foundations. So, in doing that we looked at statistics and data on how often these different customizations and options were used. Many of them were used very uncommonly, and so in the interests of simplifying and stream lining the whole process, so there aren't a million checkboxes when you are looking to set up your guild permissions, we consolidated a few of those under the general umbrella category of are you an officer, this is what an officer can do.**

Thank you for clarifying this. I honestly figured this is what happened, based on how the changes to GuildSpeak and Public notes effected both Guilds and Communities alike.

I can only speculate on this, but I think the intent here is to make it so Guild and Community features may be available outside of game, in a new app. Again this is speculation, and this feature would be nice considering the old app has been retired.

Separately, I can also respect the K.I.S.S. philosophy (Keep It Simple Stupid, for those that don't know). Honestly, you got the two S's backwards, because it's stupidly simple. I'm not bashing, this is just a honest truth.

"The Umbrella Of"....

Well, this is a problem. Not all guilds run under an umbrella. Not all officers and officer types fall under this umbrella. Thus the problem.

Many guilds run like a business. I've stated this before. You have the owner, managers, team/shift leads, and standard employees. You would not give the same access to a team/shift lead as you would your manager. Although some information that is given to a manager may need to be accessible to a team/shift lead, and some things as an owner you don't not want your Mangers to have free access to.

This is why the "Umbrella" that is "Is Officer" just plainly stinks, and why you have 67 pages of people asking you to delink these permissions.

Perhaps with your "Data" and the uncommonly used features are because the people that are in these roles are far less than the many in a guild?

I understand that you are now rebuilding the Guild logic from the ground up on a different system, and that means time is needed to make changes. It also means that not all changes are feasible since the new system may not allow for one aspect or another. I respect that... but for heaven's sake, when this thread got extended for the SECOND time, could this not have been told to us????

Can you not just let us know if something can or can not be done on the new system?

You have essentially told us how we can and can not run our guilds.

**The right way to get this changed, we are open to re-adding functionality where it makes sense. I think it's just a question of getting us feedback, helping us understand what value you were getting running your own guilds, your own communities, and we'll see what we can do.**

Again 67 pages. BUT if that’s what you want, fine. I'll put up my "feedback" in a different post.

AGAIN I will outline how it is affecting my guild.

(Translation: You asked for feedback, but you are not telling us how you want this feedback, or what you want specifically feedback on.)
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Another quote from the original thread:
08/23/2018 01:10 PMPosted by Hathlo
The Developer Q&A asked us to provide feedback specifically about what problems we have running our guilds with the new IsOfficer consolidation. So i'm gonna spend some time actually trying to explain what i'd like to see and why.

Access officer channels
This provides access to /o and the officer voice channel.
This is a big one. Our guild has what basically amounts to a Jr. Officer rank. We want that rank to have access to officer chat and some permissions like Calendar Events and Guild / Officer Notes, but we don't necessarily want or need that rank to be editing the message of the day or guild information, or the ability to remove people from voice chat or delete logged messages.

Persistent chat lodges an issue here too. If permission to access officer chat is restored as a separate control, we also need the a new ability to allow or deny access for reading the old logged messages in the officer channel. This allows us to invite a rank temporarily to officer chat without compromising what may be sensitive officer chat. I don't want to have to clear 8000 messages out of the chat log to do this.

Our workaround for this currently being a grouped permission is that we've made a battle net community that our jr officers and the sr leadership are a part of, rather than granting those permissions and hoping that things don't get edited when they shouldn't. What we would want to do for inviting a rank to officer chat on a temporary basis for feedback or suggestions can also be achieved though this workaround, but with much much more overhead than what controls used to be available to us. Id be more comfortable allowing that access at a temporary basis if we had better logging tools to see who made what edits.
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Another post from the original thread:
08/24/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Nysalla
There doesn’t need to be any sort of “is officer” consolidated rank. Every rank should have the ability to be customized with any combination of permissions. This change should be completely reverted.

Also forced persistent chat is not a good thing.

I’ve said it again and again, it’s a bad idea to make guild chat into a public chat room. People who weren’t online at the time something was said shouldn’t be able to go back and read things. Even more so with future members.

If this had been implemented in WoW in the past I NEVER would have made the friends I have now because I’m not going to have personable conversations in a damn public forum.

Can we please get an option to have guild chat like it was before? And have an option for multiple chat channels in guild? One could be for persists chat. Announcements, people saying they’ll be missing a raid or taking a break etc..

But the guild changes are why I didn’t spend the prepatch recruiting and getting my guild up and going. I have more of my friends playing now than ever, but none of us want to be a part of a guild because of the chat changes.

Please give us the option to have multiple chat channels with OPTIONAL persistent chat. I’ve been posting this for over a month in addition to tweeting the devs. And it’s not like I’m
the only one that feels this way..

In short: Remove “is officer” rank consolidations, and let us have any combination of privileges for the various ranks. And give us the option for multiple chat channels with different settings for persistent chat.
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Especially useful post from the original thread:
08/24/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Irannia
08/24/2018 08:41 PMPosted by Elypsis
Please revert the guild permissions!


Give your reasons why. They want more "Feedback" so just saying revert the changes dose no good.

I would encurage you to list the following:

Feature:
How it was used:
How did the changes affect my guild:
Workaround:
Otherwise you probably are waisting your breath.
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From original thread:
08/26/2018 10:40 PMPosted by Takoda
Since Ion asked for more feedback, I am happy to oblige.

“Is Officer”
My objection to this setting is largely based in the fact that I had two ranks that I considered Officer level ranks. The lower level rank had access to most of these abilities, but not admin ones (such as MOTD and edit ginfo). The higher level rank was more of a co-GM position that has access to every permission I can possibly give out.

Under the current system, I do not have a functional difference between these two ranks, and lose the sense of progression from “Officer” to “Co-GM.” I also dislike how it forces me to decide up front if I trust someone enough to give them full access to the guild, rather than providing the option to ease someone into a responsible role more slowly. The way I see it, there are two options for moving forward.

    1) Differentiate the “admin” level permissions from the “officer” level permissions – this will work for my guild, but I can't speak for others.
    2) Unbundle “is officer” so permissions can be indivudially selected – This should work well for everyone.


Below is a feature specific breakdown for how we use the “IsOfficer” options: (Thanks Irannia!)

Feature: Access officer channels
How it was used: We rarely use officer chat.
How did the changes affect my guild: n/a.
Workaround: n/a

Feature: Remove people from voice chat
How it was used: We don't use this.
How did the changes affect my guild: n/a.
Workaround: We use Discord instead.

Feature: Delete other people's chat messages
How it was used: We haven't had need to use this yet. I did test it to see how it works.
How did the changes affect my guild: n/a.
Workaround: n/a

Feature: Delete other people's guild events
How it was used: This was available to both of my officer ranks. It wasn't used commonly, but sometimes someone wanted to set up a transmog run or something, and would need some help with it.
How did the changes affect my guild: TBH, I don't know. We had some issues with the calendar and about 5 of us were trying to get an event to work, pasting and deleting, asking who can see it now. At the time, I wrote it off as “just another bug” and posted an announcement in Discord instead. In retrospect, it may have been at least partially due to this setting.
Workaround: Discord announcement

Feature: View and edit officer notes
How it was used: I actually had this available to everyone in the guild. We used them for telling jokes, posting profession or ilvl info. It was like extra space on the public note.
How did the changes affect my guild: We have basically abandoned the officer notes and no longer use them.
Workaround: Jokes are in Discord, the other aspects are unused.

Feature: Edit public notes
How it was used: Everyone had access to public notes as well. We mark alts in the public note.
How did the changes affect my guild: Alts are not getting marked. Between alts, returning players, and people who recently joined the guild, there is quite a bit of confusion about who someone is, and it makes it difficult to tell who is online. This also has the side effect of slowing down the process of forming groups.
Workaround: None so far. If I'm not online, alts are usually not getting marked. (I need to check out that addon that everyone is talking about.)

Feature: Edit ginfo/MOTD
How it was used: This was available to me and co-GMs (but not the officer rank). Typically, I was the only one to actually use it. Occasionally, our raid lead would post a MOTD.
How did the changes affect my guild: I was forced to choose between taking away all other permissions from my 2nd officer rank, or giving them access to everything.
Workaround: For now, I did check the “Is Officer” box on the lower officer rank. But I did some demotions first for the people that I wasn't comfortable having access to those permissions.

In sum, because I had multiple levels of Officer, my structure is broken. To top it all off (and the thing that really upset me) is that I was completely blindsided by this change. I'm sure that Blizzard has the technology to send a courtesy email to all accounts that hold a GM spot. And the capacity definitely exists to say that this change is coming, and to ask for feedback.

What happened in my guild is that all ranks except the co-GM rank defaulted to having “Is Officer” unchecked. So without my knowledge or consent, my 2nd officer ranks were stripped of most of their ability to do anything. Since I had a few of these permissions available to everyone, nearly everyone in my guild ended up losing permissions.

Wishlist

I also spoke with the people in my guild about what we would like to see moving forward. Overwhelmingly, the response was, “Fix the bugs.” I know a lot bugs have been addressed already, but we are still running into bugs every day. I'll not elaborate here, since this thread is not about bugs.

We still did come up with some suggestions. A lot of these suggestions are not directly related to the “Is Officer” box, but they do tie directly into the idea that has been mentioned several times. Guilds need MORE permissions and customization, not less. I know that at least some of these have been mentioned previously. This is just the wishlist for my guild. To that end, I would like to see the following added to guilds:

Recruitment (Is currently a giant mess and needs some attention desperately)
    The guild finder needs major help. I need to be able to provide more information about my guild. And people who are looking for a guild need to have better sorting/search tools to help them find a guild that is a good fit.

    We need a mechanism to invite while offline, such as sending the invite via in-game mail. Probably 90% of the time that I go to invite someone from the guild finder, I can't because they are offline.

    Link the recruitment page to a “recrutiment officer” permission that provides notifications via pop up or in game mail to let guild officers know that a new request was entered. In my guild, we frequently don't see a request to join for a really long time. An alert would be super helpful because then I (or a designated officer) could handle the invite immediately if we are online, or when we get back if offline.


Communication
    Ability to turn off perma chat on a rank level. My preference would be that myself and my co-GM rank would be able to access perma chat for all logs. For guild leadership, it will be a useful tool for researching complaints about things that happened in gchat. If I had the choice, I would set other ranks to have a set duration (such as 24 hours). That way, I wouldn't have to worry about sensitive subjects remaining in the logs forever.

    Better integration with guilds and communities. Specifically, I'd love for the ability to have communities serve as a “bridge” between guild chat and friends/family on other servers. Sort of like a guild extension that would let them actually participate in the guild in a limited fashion (like chat, but no bank access for example). I actually thought this was how it was going to work. I was very disappointed when I found out that it doesn't work that way.

    More space in ginfo. I'm constantly running out of room. We have our one rule, some basic info, and a discord link. I am unable to add community links due to the lack of space. Should we decide to expand into communities, I will have to post the links in Discord instead.

    Default hide guild/officer chat from before you had permission to see it. This one is super obvious. If a sensitive discussion is taking place in guild/officer chat about if someone should be invited or promoted, that person shouldn't be able to see the log.


Management
    Ability to mute indivudial players, not ranks. My raid lead mentioned this. He would like the ability to choose to mute someone for set durations, like 30 mins, 24 hours, or until unmuted.

    Ability to tell ilvl in the guild pane, rather than needing to armory check. This is just a QOL thing. In my guild, we don't pay a ton of attention to ilvl, but it would be very useful to be able to check in the guild pane how everyone is coming along on their gearing goals. Currently, I have to manually check everyone's armory. (Which is super awkward when someone has funky letters in their name.) If I had the option, I would prefer if this is not prominent in the guild pane or an optional permission that I can give to officers only.

    Ability to mass delete everything someone said from the logs. I'm really not looking forward to the day when some idiot goes ham in guild chat and no officers were online for hours to kick/mute them. Please give me the ability to remove all that garbage from the logs easily.

    Ability to promote/demote/kick an account rather than just a toon. I like to have alts on the same rank as mains in my guild. I would like to see an optional feature to make this easier on roster management. As is, I always miss an alt, or it wasn't marked in public note. It would be nice to have a clean roster with everyone where they are supposed to be.

    Ability to give officers a different color chat when they speak in guild or some logo to differentiate them from a normal member. I mostly want this for onboarding new members – a sort of “talk to this person if you need help.” But I could see it working for some guilds as a reward structure too.
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From original thread:
08/29/2018 01:51 PMPosted by Mathrenas
I pray to Elune someone is working hard on this because after 69 pages it's looking extremely bleak, frustrating even.

There is no amount of feedback that I can give that hasn't been stated twelve times over in this thread, and at this point it's looking like an echo chamber of lost hope. Please revert the changes, then look into improving. Improving means giving more options without lumping them all under one category, allowing more player control of what they've created.

If what you're worried about, Blizzard, is player domination pushing people away, need I remind that this is an MMORPG, meaning that for every four guilds you find that don't fit your bill there is always at least one that will feel like home.

Please stop giving player freedom. It only makes things frustrating and ends up moving players to a third party system in order to do what they want.
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From original thread:
08/31/2018 05:36 AMPosted by Walkerbo
The changes to guild management were rebuilt with the new community features and that is the reason why the current guild permissions are not as flexible as they once were.

Here is a comparison of what we have now and what we had before communities were introduced.
https://i.imgur.com/JYNV0S7.png

For me the changes have clumped together in such a way that ranks are either an "officer" or "not an officer".
In the past I was able to finely tweak each of the ranks based on what sort of guildy they were.
  • Assistant Guild Master - full control of everything as I trusted them totally
  • Guild Officer - could not modifyg guild info and chnange bank permissions
  • Guild Seargent - could not see officer chat, see officer notes, demote and remove guild members
  • Guild Corporal - could not promote guild members and reduced access to remove items on certain bank tabs
  • Guild Private - could not create/edit guild events and edit public notes
  • New Recruit - could not invite members, deposit only access to the guild bank no guild repairs
  • Guild Stockade - (sin bin) could not speak in chat and no bank access

    • Also I note that in communities we have the ability to not only ban players it is an account wide ban, something that has long been desired by guilds and players.

    If this functionality is now possible can we please have the ability to not only ignore a character but also the option to ignore the whole account.
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    From original thread:
    08/30/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Venjin
    Feature: Edit Guild Info.

    How my wife uses it: It's a summary of when we were founded, our Discord info, our Facebook address, and explanation of ranks (which is now inaccurate due to new changes). Due to abuse by former officers in 2007, this has been exclusively GM controlled since 2008.

    Workaround: Nobody else is an officer at the moment. This power is under tight watch until we can get things fixed. A daily conversation, typically 10-15 min. in length, regarding the "complete and total breaking of how I can't control things the way I want" is levied upon me in which I am required to agree with any salient points.

    Even when I'm in the middle of building a new Magic: The Gathering EDH deck, which causes an occasional lapse in agreement that extends the lecture by 5-7 minutes and causes "wife aggro".

    Blizzard.
    I'm lookin' at you here.
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    From original thread:
    09/03/2018 10:32 AMPosted by Wretchedmist
    Checking in again to make sure my voice is heard. Everyone contributing to this discussion needs to keep doing so.

    As of right now, I haven't assigned anyone in our guild with the "Is Officer" box since there are certain permissions I will not assign to anyone in the guild, regardless of rank. As a result of this, nobody in the guild has access to any of those eight privileges since they're all lumped together in a one-size-fits-all definition of an officer.

    Please give us the individual permission customization we had prior to patch 8.0. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.

    For further recommendations to help guild management, add a complete log/record system for the guild bank so the guild master can keep track of cumulative records on gold deposits, gold repairs, gold withdraws, item deposits, and item withdraws. If WoW developers can create and maintain a statistics tab with all kinds of totally useless information for my character, they can add a simple feature that lets me keep track of a few guild bank records. That would actually help guilds.

    Please address this problem sooner than later. This thread began on July 17. We're now at September 3 and we're three full weeks into BfA content. I'm not asking for an apology. Just please revert the permissions change. That's it. Many people have already given detailed explanations and feedback here over these 71 pages. You have what you need, and the "discussion" has already occurred. Read it, and pass the information along to the next group of people who need to make the correction. Failure to do so will just further the stereotypes of poor communication at Blizzard.

    I will continue to check in here until the change is made. Everyone else needs to do so, too.
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    Another from the original thread (I've just been quoting the original posts here and leaving off my own comments that I made about them. Maybe my comments were relevant, but I'd rather let others do the speaking now.)
    07/18/2018 01:47 PMPosted by Dobbì
    being allowed to toggle permissions on and off and limit guild withdrawls and guild repairs is essential to running a smooth guild.

    There seems to be confusions with those that are not a functioning GM.

    you join RedDolphin, you can access guild tab 1 and 2 with a daily withdrawl limit of 1 item and no guild repairs thats about it.

    rank 2 you can withdrawl 4 items, you can ginvite users and can see the food/flask raider tabs but you cannot withdrawl from them.

    rank 3 hidden officer rank for non raiding friends that can gkick if no one is online

    rank 4 alt raider rank can withdrawl from raider tab as well as all previous privledges minor daily gold guild repair

    rank 5 main raider can withdrawl more from raider tabs, larger guild repair

    rank 6 officer, can see and withdrawl from officer and gm tab and has higher withdrawl privileges can edit motd and all that jazz and can kick users

    rank 7 CoGm rank - all access

    rank 8 GM

    it isnt always about who you trust its about what said group of ppl actually need.
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    20
    From the original thread:
    07/20/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Kurston
    I've complained for years that the guild system had too few capabilities and now they've removed more rather than adding more.

    - It should be 1000 accounts not member-characters.

    - There should be member ROLES as well as ranks (like SQL Server).

    - Members can have only one RANK, but multiple ROLES.

    - Players should have RANKS and ROLES.
    a. RANKS should be title or position in guild.
    b. ROLES should be groupings of permissions.

    Now, guilds are simply... In control or not in control. It seems like they are turning Guilds into Communities and the only difference between Guild and Community is tag-line, guild bank, and tabard. Plus Communities can cross realms.

    This concept is going to kill all but mythic-raiding guilds.
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