Consider though that prior to their rework, Prot Pally was near the bottom and generally considered the WORST tank in the game. They honestly did not get THAT much from their talent rework, not unlike what Bears got from their changes in DF S2, and it shot them up as high as they are now.
DotC is fine, however due to its lower rage and self sustain, it feels like you’re fighting against your own spec to make it work. It can be very good in certain raid fights where you want as much mitgation as possible, but otherwise EC is just easier to use.
Not really because the talent tree for it is a mess. You have to put every node into defense and you still aren’t the tankiest tank.
I had fun when we had talent points to spend on things like Dream of Cenarius, After the Wildfire, and I could spend extra rage on Raze because I didn’t need it to spam Ironfurs.
The talent tree really needs a pass to free up some points for our utility nodes and a base tankiness increase. Then maybe I can get back to having fun again because I’ll have things I can do beyond press Ironfur and die.
This.
I miss those a lot, being able to use the procs on myself or helping someone who was dropping low, bringing them back up to safety (even crit to full!)
Same with Wildifre, going all out in a huge pull, and watching the group’s HP jump up on the bloom.
It was highly satisfying, and reminded me I was playing a DRUID, not just a sponge.
… I am just a metapod using harden
Even if we weren’t forced into every single survival talent (never had to in so many expansions outside week1 prog in blues) the talents are heavily nerfed (500k heal for 300 rage from wildfire? barely moving my HP with dream??)
And then there is raze, I can’t say I like the talent but it swipes the design issues under the rug, (Why do we have many different AoE abilities that do so little, so weak…)
Ravage feels like what our BASELINE AoE kit should be, as if it would be in place of thrash, and raze in place of swipe (rage cost aside) we have many buttons that don’t feel good to press and only matter when spammed… a lot (mangle honorable mention here)
after pushing 2.6k+ on warrior, pally and DK tank I decided to give my bear a go. Starting at 620 ilvl and no real idea of the talent trees and abilities I can say the first few 10s were a bit harsh. Given I had tons of xp tanking 10s on the other toons I got by and would time with seconds left. 2 runs went overtime though.
Between runs I ended up theorycrafting with the tree and comparing with suggested builds and every time it felt terrible. Like I had to give up so much to try another build. I never felt that way on the other 3 tanks but on the bear I just felt stuck in one build which I didn’t particularly enjoy. I wanted to play around with thrash/raze/shields DoTC builds but its just so much worse than EC.
The survivability is so inconsistent… I have to be SO careful with my long and short CDs to ensure I don’t die. I think it’s absolutely lame that our biggest survival CD has a talent node for an extra charge so low in the tree yet is almost always not recommended because you lose out on another node later on or massive dps loss. So then you get aggro problems… especially when im low 620 with a bunch of high 620s bursting for their life on every pull…
Theres just so many issues with it, and I found myself loathing the spec, it just feels bad. I really want to love playing a guardian druid because the fantasy of it is amazing but holy hell is the playstyle abysmal and lame.
I just feel like they need to do a complete overhaul of the spec like they gave pallies both ret and prot
Because the other tanks play exactly the same no matter which (hero) talents you take.
Guardian plays 2 different ways and choose different talents based on those choices. The biggest difference being a 100% damage absorb shield (more defensives means bubble lasts longer) vs more passive/trickle healing
I think its more than that. And it comes down to the lackluster baseline guardian abilities.
In the other specs you have clear cut diff of a ST dps focused build vs an aoe dps one, but both still have defensive merit. After that, you can choose to be more of defensive vs offensive player in both styles, which gives you 4 good and distinct approaches to tanking M+: ST survivability, ST dps, AOE survivability and AOE dps. Those are the choices that matter when you play. Hero tree is more or less a flavor choice like choosing which of your abilities most of your dmg/survivability will come from.
For bears it is as you said, you dont really get those 4 options, you get, like you said, 2 very different playstyles ubt imo each hardlocked to their respective builds. And if you start weighing the ST/AOT/survivability/DPS options like the other tanks, you find yourself losing a ton of one to gain a minimum of another, which imo exposes the lackluster baseline power of guardian.
Can do this with guardian too.
Want more ST focus: left side of tree
Want more AoE focus: right side of tree
Want more survivability, drop dps talents for them
Want more DPS, drop a couple defensive talents
Just because theyre the recommended ones on guide sites doesnt mean youre hardlocked
Here’s two different but perfectly viable AoE builds
CgGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAzYMzMzy8AWmZmxYghZmFLAMGMzMT0MzMzMzYWgNGAAAAAAwwYGYZbmNMmlBwEAAAwGzMDA
im coming at it from the perspective of playing 3 other tanks. while you are right to some extent as I am sure you have more xp playing guardian than me, it doesnt refute the fact that the baseline power and tankiness of guardian is weak and makes each choice you bring up have huge repercussion on your overall playing experience, in comparision with prot pally, prot warr and bdk.
im just a jack of all trades tank, master of none sharing my view on the matter, in the end, I will simply shelf the guardian druid again. I hope that an overhaul happens sooner rather than later so I can have a good experience with the toon eventually.
But an overhaul isnt needed. Not to the Guardian aspect. The class tree needs some major work for sure.
But Guardian isnt worse off than the other tanks at a baseline level. The only thing separating Warrior / Paladin / Guardian from the #1 tanking position is damage output. Paladin being a prime example. Same utility and defensives before the buff but bottom of the totem pole for picks. Buffs jumped its damage through the roof and now its the go to, by a long shot.
Bear is rather sturdy. It just cant pump like the other two can. While not as familiar with Warrior, every Paladin ability blows up into an AoE ability. During Bears big go, they just get to use their abilities a wee bit faster
The thread is talking about enjoyment of the spec, and so am I, bear sucks to play and the trees are horrendous. Its not about which tanks perform better, though the point your trying to make is disingenuous if actually talking about performance.
Youre being hypocritical so im calling you out for it. In a thread about fun youre comparing tanks to one another.
When someone else shows another metric comparing tanks to one another, one that shows you overreacting a bit, you retort with “this thread is about fun, not performance” after specifically making 2 posts concerning performance.
I did, you’re simply choosing to ignore it because you disagree with it.
Yet you try to tell people “how it is” based on your limited and lacking experience.
Perhaps you should a little though. Top bear is higher than top warrior, and by your reasoning and perspective, this is impossible.
This is just wrong and based in ignorance/lack of experience. Thats all there is to it.
Yes, because bears having 2 very distinct play styles, outside of even the Hero talents lets you mix and match however you want. Add in the hero talents and now you have more options ans variance than any of the other tanks you mentioned
Depends on who you are. While i enjoy performing well, there’s a reason i (and many others) dont constantly fotm reroll every 4 weeks.
Top Guardian is doing better than both top Warrior and top DK. So thats 2 of your 3 knocked out. And i think Guardian was doing better than Paladins before they got their damage buffs.
So if youre basing fun off of performance alone, then Guardian should be your number 2 pick behind Paladin, ahead of both Warrior and DK. Yet its not. Because you lack the experience with the class to make an educated report on it.
That’s not being genuine though, you’re just looking at the surface level.
Out of the top 40 tanks one is a Guardian. It’s Squishvegan who has been around for ages and only plays Guardian Druid with the same 5-man premade every season because it is their own moral quest to promote an ideal.
The other 39 tanks (all Paladin) in the top 40 have the ability to BoP, Blessing of Sacrifice, Off-Heal with WoG, Spellwarding, Lay on Hands, etc. Paladin can tank the highest keys while not sacrificing their fun utility things, which, I’d argue make Paladin a Paladin.
We may as well only analyze Squishvegan’s build here because he’s the only 3500 bear and every other one is like 3400 or lower. He sacrifices LITERALLY everything for defense and damage and as a result still isn’t even the highest dps or survivable tank. He has no off healing, no externals, no nothing.
In Dragonflight when I had a Bear in my group I knew it because they’d be healing with Regrowth, After the Wildfire, and heal their own way through incoming damage like other self-sustain tanks. It felt distinctly different from having another tank in my group via their self-sustain and off-healing and that’s what made them unique. I could feel it as a tank when tanking and as a healer when one was my tank. You could prevent me from seeing the tank the entire run and I would be able to tell you at the end of the run if it was a Bear or not just by how the group felt. That’s good class design. I can feel their impact without even needing to see it.
In Blizzard’s quest to make sure Healers are the ONLY ones doing all the healing they hit Guardian Druid the hardest, because that was Guardians niche and identity. They can’t do any of that anymore, and it’s boring af. This thread was about if it’s fun, not if it’s playable. Well guess what Guardian will always be listed as playable because Squishvegan is always going to be there. That doesn’t mean it’s fun. I shouldn’t need to be on a moral crusade to be motivated to play a class.
Blizzard needs to figure out what the Guardian Druid theme and experience should be after they removed our identity. What makes us different from every other tank now that our previous identity was taken from us?
They had all this before and still were #2 to Warriors…so what gives?
He doesnt. DoC got nerfed to where its no longer worth it, and theres just not enough talent points to pick up the unpredictable therefor unnecessary Wildfire healing…know what he didnt “sacrifice”? Dispel, AoE interrupt, interrupt, knockback, vortex, soothe
Must not keep up with the times. Self sustain was DIRECTLY nerfed so healers could do stuff. This isnt an option any more
Yup. Squish is the only Guardian druid to break 3k or do 17 keys. Nailed it.
For rating concern, refer to my third or so post replying to the same thing.
Only 30 bears completed a set of 14s, pally side has 720+
Can’t just cherry pick the very top, even the 5th best has a gap of up to FOUR keys.
Yes, performance can be tied to enjoyment but forget min maxing for a sec.
The point is at the overall / average level performance is too low / inconsistent / reliant on strangers for it to be enjoyable and push further (regardless if doable)
Its like playing with a handicap, the number of people who want to put in the effort at no extra reward get lower and lower FAST once you get past 10-11s
Sure, playing with a dedicated team on comms, knowing they pull their weight, calling CC, kicks, or externals if need be, coordinating pulls and so on to make bear work would be a different story. But again, back to the standard PUG group “run in and tank” the experience can be… less than encouraging.
