Guardian Questions

[Udderblast-stormrage]

This is gonna be an unpopular question.

I plan on using OBR . The guides i see say its a 30-40% DPS loss. I’m assuming this is because it requires you to catweave? I don’t plan on Tanking beyond 10s honestly. Maybe if I gel with the spec enough I will put in the extra work. Mainly I plan on tanking for friends who have a hard time finding tanks.

Can i forgo catweaving and tank 10-12s with the OBR and correct usage of defensives?

FWIW i main DPS/Demo lock so it’ll be a shift for me.

[Toadfoot-tichondrius]

I would go elunes chosen for m+, especially if you’re trying to simplify things
don’t bother with catweaving for m+

OBR is very bad for tanks, but if you’re doing 10-12 it might be fine? not sure

[Udderblast-stormrage]

The thing that confuses me is outside of CDs it looks like Guardians a 3-4 button rotation. So I’m wondering what OBR is doing wrong that it causes such a bad DPS lost. I feel like If i understand that I might just not need OBR.

[Halløwed-zuljin]

@Udderblast-stormrage

Can i forgo catweaving and tank 10-12s with the OBR and correct usage of defensives?

You can for 10’s for sure but healers might not like you. The problem with OBR is you’re rage starved outside of incarn so your active mitigation is low.

[Gumblé-thrall]

OBR sucks pretty hard for tanks and healers. You can do it, but you’ll just be contributing to people thinking bear suck.

[Tankard-suramar]

I think it has something to do with the increased GCD times. It’s just literally slower.

[Destros-kelthuzad]

You don’t need OBR for guardian, just go elunes. You can basically face roll the rest of your buttons if you want (thrash, mangle, moonfire, swipe) Just thrash on cooldown and do whatever you want with the rest of your buttons (while spamming iron fure) You don’t ever need to use maul, and also swipe has pretty limited use.

[Dreaux-emerald-dream]

Guardian’s rotation is actually easier and more efficient than OBR.

In a M+ Environment it is pretty simple.

The Basics

1. Make sure you are in bear form
2. You can pull a pack with Moonfire or run into a pack.
3. Thrash (before mangle)
4. Mangle your main target (bonus damage from bleeds/thrash)
5. Cast Ironfur while taking Physical Damage, Ironfur will stack, Ironfur will do damage to the mobs if you are running the Thorns of Iron talent.
6. As EC you should be taking the Galactic Guardian talent which gives you an empowered moonfire. Beside pulling, only use the GG procs when your Moonfire buff is about to expire on a mob.
7. Swipe or Moonfire if you have nothing else to cast and/or pooling rage. Ultra low priority. Don’t get caught up with Swipe Spam. This happens to a lot of new guardian druids.
8. As EC Maul can be sent to spend rage if you aren’t taking physical damage. Most of the time it is better to send Ironfur.

Cooldowns - Do not overlap

1. If you are going into a pack dry/no rage cast Barkskin to help with damage mitigation and threat.
2. Cast Rage of the Sleep if talented
3. Cast Incarn on bigger pulls, don’t waste it at the end of a pack (mobs sub 25%). Plan your big pulls around Incarn availability.
4. Press Frenzy Regen when you need healing, don’t spam both charges. Allow it to you heal you.
5. Use Heart of the Wild as a DPS boost. It is a 5 min CD. You can even macro it to Incarn until you get use to the spec and more comfortable when to recognize situations on when it can be used optimally.
6. Survival Instincts - Our Wall. Great for big packs or to help your healer.

Hero Talent

1. Cast Lunar Beam on CD. It will be available often and sometimes it will be up multiple times per pack. This is a great threat tool as well.

Utility

1. Vortex/Typhoon combo are great for stopping a clumped up group of casters or stacking a pack for optimal cleave damage for your DPS.
2. Stampeding Roar - Group speed buff to help your team avoid damage or travel to packs quickly.
3. Soothe - Make those enraged mobs tickle you.
4. Incap Roar - Great AOE caster or affix stop.

TL;DR - Thrash, Mangle, Ironfur, Lunar Beam, Cooldowns, Utility as needed.

[Tankard-suramar]

This is some great advice, thanks for typing that up.

[Gilindiir-proudmoore]

Bear is the Easiest tank…you can face roll and hold threat/dps. I wouldnt worry about that aspect…but be more concerned with Routes, Whats Dangerous, Interrupts and keeping timer Pace.

[Gumblé-thrall]

All tanks are easy and getting easier.

[Sheronir-warsong]

@Gilindiir-proudmoore

Bear is the Easiest tank…

Show me your bear, please )

[Sheronir-warsong]

@Linxy

Guardian

• Apex Talents: Wild Guardian
  • After Berserk or Incarnation: Guardian of Ursoc ends, you gain access to Wild Guardian.
    • Wild Guardian: Spirits of the wild come to your aid, causing your next 2 casts of Ironfur, Maul, and Frenzied Regeneration to be echoed at 50% effectiveness.
  • Mastery increased by 3%/6%. Wild Guardian’s echoes of your abilities are now cast at 100%/150% effectiveness.
  • Wild Guardian’s echoes of your abilities are empowered with additional effects:
    • Ironfur: Absorbs damage.
    • Frenzied Regeneration: Grants Dream of Cenarius.
    • Maul: Deals 50% additional Nature damage over 12 seconds.

What kind of garbage did they come up with to pass off as Apex talents?
For comparison, just look at the Apex VDH talents, for example.

[Gumblé-thrall]

Yea imagine the demon hunter one in bear speak…

@Linxy

Guardian

• Apex Talents: Nature’s Rage
  • Mangle has a chance per target hit to grant Nature’s Rage, allowing Beserk to be cast without incurring its cooldown and lasting 10 seconds.
  • Mangle hits 1 additional target and deals 20% extra Arcane damage.
  • Each cast of Mangle that does not grant Nature’s Rage instead applies a stack of Hunger for Blood. Hunger for Blood grants 1% Agility and increases your chance to gain Nature’s Rage. Lasts 12 seconds and cannot be refreshed after gaining Nature’s Rage.

[Arahgon-maiev]

@Sheronir-warsong

For comparison, just look at the Apex VDH talents, for example.

its lowkey kinda lame

its gluttony but stronger. but like having a defensive be on a RNG proc chance is never fun.

[Sheronir-warsong]

Out of curiosity, I looked at the Apex talents of all tank specs. Five of the six tank specs have excellent Apex talents, and only the Bear has not just weak, but downright terrible Apex talents.
It’s hard to say how they could do it so badly, even in alpha.

[Coyote-tichondrius]

They have had a lot of practice at it.

[Arahgon-maiev]

prot paladin is very lack luster and its just “As generates hopo now”

bdk is more rng attachment to dancing rune weapon

prot w is actually solid ngl

vdh is gluttony aka more rng defensives.

while bear has issues i agree, cauze zerk can net you more casts of apex talent, i do believe it has potential to make bear stronger out of its cds. they just need to change some things.

[Etamalgren-drenden (Etamalgren)]

It’s a 30-40% DPS loss cause it is effectively -25% haste and uses abilities inefficiently. You really shouldn’t be using OBR on a tank, especially one with a priority system as simple as Guardian’s:

1. ALWAYS HAVE AT LEAST ONE STACK OF IRONFUR UP IN COMBAT.
2. Use Thrash on cooldown
3. Use Mangle if available (Not on cooldown or has a proc active)
4. Use Galactic Guardian if the proc is active
5. Moonfire if the mob doesn’t have moonfire
6. Swipe Moonfire as filler

@Sheronir-warsong

What kind of garbage did they come up with to pass off as Apex talents?

…yuck. For a three minute cooldown, we get just two free empowered ironfurs/frenzied regens after it ends? About the only thing that I like from the guardian apex talents is the flat mastery % (assuming it isn’t lowered to 2.1/4.2% from guardian’s mastery multiplier).

[Gumblé-thrall]

I would counter that BDK and VDH are actually VERY good.

Prot pally is just extra damage they will be balanced around so /shrug. They don’t need the extra holy power, so it just translates to extra damage since their CDR due to holy power is gone.
Prot Warrior is basically the same but at least has some defensive value and allows SS to crit alot which may play into other things.
Brew is the same but with a cleaving hot that may be useful but will likely overheal on group members. While the theme is cool, the damage they get from empty kegs will be taken from other abilities, as it always is when you get more sources of damage.

None of those is great, but they are “servicable”

BDK could become very meh, but for now the RNG is in their favor and the DRW is up well over 50% of the time from their APEX, making their San’layn tree VERY strong.

VDH is basically a stronger version of the 1min CD demon shift they lost in the pruning. These talents will actually scale as they get more haste, making their APEX talents start pretty good, but scale VERY well as the expansion goes on.

Bears got… 4 talents to use to fill out their spec tree, since nobody would ever seriously use those apex talents for anything.