Cruel Strikes: Increases critical strike chance by 1% and critical damage dealt by execute by 5%.
Gosh, only 5%? That sucks.
Vulnerable Flesh is 15-30%
Massacre: Execute is now useable on targets below 35% health (unlikely to be taken over Enduring defenses, but still
so… sub 20% again?
Who cares.
Sudden Death: Your attacks have a chance to make your next execute free and useable on any target and deal damage as if cast at 40 rage, fuelling Juggernaught.
oh… a free proc!
Is that what makes it exciting?
Yeah we have that too. Except, you know, 100% of the time.
…and just like juggernnuts, that maul will increase the damage of our next mangle by 3%… (no… sorry thats the crappy warriors talent ) ah yess… 15% (stacking) for druids.
Strategist: Your execute has a 30% chance to reset the remaining cooldown on Shield Slam.
Thats just gore. except, again… we have it 100% of the fight and it procs from all attacks.
I didn’t say that it is outright better than maul on its own. I said the rage ecosystem of warrior in totality is better than bear.
Were you trying to build an argument as to why execute “feels better” than maul? Cause You did a piss poor job of it. After reading this… I kinda wanna press maul!
Did you use beta figures for that ignorant comment? Willing to bet you didnt!
Going from 56% to 68% damage taken is 28% less damage taken.
Going from 68% to 75% damage taken is 22% less damage taken.
Going from 75% to 79.5% is 18% less damage taken.
Only on the FOURTH stack does maul become relatively stronger DR than Ironfur.
Maul’s damage reduction is multiplicative, so why would you consider ironfur stacks relative value additively?
Ok Donut.
Yes, in a discussion about the DEFENSIVE value of the ability, ignore pain does not stack. Context matters; applying a clearly irrelevant context to an argument is either willful misrepresentation or idiocy. Your choice, you croissant.
Again; part of a package that includes FOUR abilities that consume rage, on a class that generates it much faster than bear. You left out the context the original time I talked about execute. Again; willful misrepresentation or idiocy. And yes, that’s beta figures.
Furthermore, with all of those talents, maul still does less damage per execution time than baseline execute. Warrior can opt to put more talents in to do more damage… or not, and the button will still be worth pushing. Unlike maul, which costs a minimum of 1 talent point, and requires at least 4 to be worth pushing.
I tested wildfire on heroics. It was really funny when it crit on 3 people for 100k+ at a time. Just by the time I got to testing it, I was a bit tired and just wanted some easy runs as I was playing with some really odd ball builds (like, some really bad ones), like one that I took like every healing bonus talent I could find. PotP, Dream, Wildfire, resto talents, etc. It was entertaining, but my DPS was sad, almost 25% off the build I’m likely to go with if there aren’t any more changes.
Other stuff I tested on M+. But that tanky build was I literally focused on all defensive build just to see the extremes. So from there I starting swapping talents over to more DPS. I was within 10-15% of what my warrior and VDH could put out, but the big difference is, especially on warrior, I still felt godly as a tank with being able to manage damage intake no matter what.
I know I wasn’t necessarily utilizing maul to the most effective it could be as it’ll be a bit of a change to get used to having it back as a contributing part of the abilities.
I really just wish Dream was more accessible even after going up the right side. It’s possible, and I played around with that build, but that’s the build I gave up a lot of DPS to go for it.
BrM may be there, but BrM is not a tank I’m familiar with playing. My knowledge is limited to mostly Druid, Pally, and Warrior. I consider myself viable with BDK and VDH. BrM for some reason I can’t get a handle on. Now I haven’t given it an honest try like ever. Part of that may stem from the fact Panda is the only expansion I skipped. Life was too busy and it just didn’t appeal to me and still doesn’t. I have a monk at level cap, but just can’t get into it.
Im literally reading off the in game character screen.
That is the difference in Physical damage reduced per stack.
I didnt add a damn thing.
Im showing you the diminishing value per stack.
/yikes
lol ok…
A 10k physical attack hits me for 4.4k (56% base armor)
One stack of Ironfur would reduce that attack to 3.2k.
A boss affected by Tooth and claw will now deal 15% less damage to me.
That 10k hit becomes 8.5 before its even swung.
Reduced by 56% (base armor) it now hits me for is 3740.
Oh shucks… I guess I was wrong after all.
Ironfur reduced that physical damage by 540 more!
Wait… what did I say again?
Lets look back…
Oh yeah that’s right? It reduced ALL DAMAGE (plus its “insignificant” shield from ursoc)
Maul would only have to only have to hit for 1800 to generate a shield big enough to pick up that slack. But… we both know its much bigger than that.
Regardless , that’s not why were here. IDGAF about melee swings. Thats what earthwarden is for.
Lets talk boss mechanics that dont deal physical.
Lets go back then to What I was saying earlier
A 10k Magical attack hits me for 10k
One stack of Ironfur would reduce that attack to … 10k
A boss affected by Tooth and claw will now deal 15% less damage to me.
That 10k hit becomes 8.5 before its even cast.
Its then further reduced by 30% of mauls damage.
So… lets review …
False.
Your opinion is trash.
Furthermore, this entire discussion is moot at you would simply use IF paired with Maul, making your opinion even more trash.
What exactly is it you think youre saying here.
Be specific. use as many words to describe it.
You listed the numbers as evidence that the DR on ironfur made it less valuable than the 15% from maul. It does not, until atleast 4 stacks of ironfur.
The numbers 11.85%, 6.78% and 4.38% are utterly irrelevant to the discussion at best, and an attempt to misrepresent the DR provided by ironfur in the context of maul at worst.
Either you completely misunderstood that these numbers were not representative of the relative DR value of ironfur stacks and thought that by posting them you were proving that ironfur was weaker than it is, or you didn’t misunderstand that and did it intentionally.
Your claim that you “were just showing the difference in physical damage reduced per stack” makes me think it is the former, and you just didn’t realise that what you posted was dumb. As the saying goes, don’t apply malicious intent to that which is adequately described by ignorance.
Then, given your self-proclaimed intelligence is clearly an important part of your personal image, as per:
it’s no surprise that you felt compelled to pretend like it was nothing.
So, we have clarified, that iron fur is infact better than maul for DR for damange which it applies to? Great, glad we agree.
Maul would have to generate a shield big enough to cover ALL attacks for the duration of the ironfur cast to make up the difference. On a standard boss swinging once per 2 seconds, that means it would have to be 4 times as strong as you claim. It’s not.
Earth Warden also works in tandem with ironfur and maul, so saying “that’s what earthwarden is for”, implying one or the other, is intellectually dishonest. You can take both.
And a list of times where anyone has claimed that Ironfur is better than maul on damage that ironfur does not apply to is… where?
True.
Your opinion is trash.
You will now that they don’t use the same resource to apply. Since that wasn’t the context of the discussion, who cares?
It’s not remotely complicated, so similarly to before, either you’re being intellectually dishonest or you’re an idiot.
Ignore pain gives shield per rage at a linear rate. Whether you apply that shield in quick succession or with more time between is irrelevant to the damage reduced by that rage. You cannot cast ignore pain twice in a second and block more damage per point of rage than casting it twice 5 seconds apart. Assuming your shield is being entirely consumed and not timing out, every point of rage spent on ignore pain blocked an equivalent amount of damage. To put it another way, only one instance of ignore pain will ever apply to one damage instance.
The same is not true of ironfur. You can press ironfur multiple times in quick succession, and those multiple instances of ironfur will apply simultaneously to the damage that occurs during their duration.
TL:DR; In defensive value Ironfur stacks, Ignore pain doesn’t.
Oops: Almost forgot to edit this in, since you are tapping away down there!
You’re comparing the two against each other when there isn’t any need.
So….this opinion….
……Is trash.
You’re opinions on maul are nothing more than trash.
You made assumptions. You mean?
That’s your own reading comprehension playing tricks on you.
I demonstrated that the value of IF greatly diminishes after each use, Making the cost per use less efficient per stack. Meaning that rage spent is better worth saving and staggering those 1-2 stacks paired with maul.
Your big brain ego has you thinking you have to stack it to 4 before there is any value in maul.
That’s dumb!
The value of maul is a constant for all damage. The two pair wonderfully, as much as you hate to admit it.
Why are you still pretending you’re going to use them either/or on physical? You use both. Another moot point.
You literally deleted the part of my post that addressed the absorb, then accused me of ignoring the absorb.
You literally deleted the part of my post that addressed the fact that prior to the buffed tooth and claw you couldn’t use ironfur AND maul at the same time, because both spent the same resource. Ironfur was measurably better in all cases where it applied to damage up to and including 4 stacks.
Now that maul does not cost rage, one would be an idiot to say that it was bad… which is why nobody has said that. Another fact that I posted in a previous reply, that you edited out.
The words that you are saying make literally no sense. They are utterly non-sequiter. It’s like saying 1+1=banana.
If the damage you are taking is physical, ironfur reduces more damage per rage up to and including 4 stacks. If it is not physical, ironfur is irrelevant.
Maul DR stacks MULTIPLICATIVELY with ironfur, so the only relevant way to compare ironfur stacks to each other is multiplicatively.
The first stack of ironfur multiplicatively reduces your damage taken by 28%
The second stack of ironfur multiplicatively reduces your damage taken by 22%
The third stack of ironfur multiplicatively reduces your damage taken by 18%
The fourth stack of ironfur multiplicatively reduces your damage taken by 15.5%
Maul multiplicatively reduces your damage taken by 15%
In a 10,000 damage hit, maul doesn’t always reduce your damage taken by 1500. It reduces your damage taken by 1500 multiplied by all other DR terms applied to that damage. You can’t just say “nar nar maul is always the first term in the equation because I say so”.
Then, as an added bonus, maul lasts for 6 seconds, its shield lasts for (what is likely to be) 1 hit, and ironfur lasts for 8-10 seconds and has a 10% chance to be applied twice depending on talents.
If you meant all of this in the context of maul now being free and thus not sharing resources with ironfur, that is irrelevant to the previous positioning of maul as a COMPETITIOR with ironfur. You cannot switch back and forth to your heart’s content, and take the best arguments from both.
You do now. The discussion was on the previous value of maul, which you have edited out over the course of the thread. Again; nobody is claiming that the current version of maul isn’t strong. It is.
Every single post you make is childish. Do you think I care that you are posting it? I stand by every word in it. All 15 times. Maul WAS a bad ability. It DOES feel bad. I DON’T want it. That doesn’t mean I won’t use it now that it is tuned to a point where it is strong. I can do that at the same time as arguing about why I don’t like it.
No, I’m not going to reword it a third time. It is abundantly clear that you either are too dumb to understand the concept, or pretending to misunderstand it because you think there is something to be gained by making me repeat myself.
If and when you get bored of pseudointellectualism and chronic mathemagicianship, and you feel like a career change, I have to say you would make an excellent fruit picker. I’m not sure where in the world you are, but here in Australia you can make great money as a cherry picker, and you wouldn’t even have to reskill.
You’re being deliberately obtuse about the amount of damage maul does. Maybe it’s still out of spite? Maybe it’s because you’re still using live values rather than updated beta values for your examples. It’s very odd behavior, I must admit.
Edit:
Nvm. I found it…. Your math was off.
You forgot vicious cycle which adds up to 45%
with all of those talents, maul still does less damage per execution time than baseline execute.
When you omit those talents from your equations… sure. As usual though, you are wrong.
You literally deleted the part of my post that addressed the fact that prior to the buffed tooth and claw you couldn’t use ironfur AND maul at the same time, because both spent the same resource.
Why not? Yes. they both cost rage. 10 points for Hufflepuff. Pressing Ironfur physically prevents me from using maul how? How rage starved do you think we are?
Is it because you still think we have to stack IF to 4 to gain any value From maul?
Lol. Oh Honey……
It makes perfect sense. You’re spending your rage inefficiently. With each application, you further decrease the value of Ironfur.
You’re dumping 40 rage for a fraction of the initial value of the first application then crying about being rage starved for maul usage.
Absurd!
If we all lived in a physical world, that might fly…. But this ain’t Patchwerk my dude.
You can’t just say “nar nar maul is always the first term in the equation because I say so”
You bet your sweet bippy I can!
You said it yourself.
Ok. So…happens A lot then?
Cool.
Key word. Was.
Your opinions on past expansions are irrelevant to this topic.
Good!
I hope you die a little inside each time you press it.
Appreciate the career advice though. Unfortunately your kangaroo coins aren’t worth much over here and that would mean a massive pay cut.
Great. So now its FIVE talent points, and only if you mangle 3 times for every time you maul. What talents are you not taking to get this supercharged maul?
You’re right though; I got it wrong. It’s possible for maul to be better damage than execute once you spend 5 talents points on it. I put this sentence here because I know it’s going to be cherry picked out and you will delete everything but the first sentence.
That is how math works, yes.
The fact that it is a fraction of the initial value is irrelevant; it matters that it is more than maul’s DR. Until a point that that isn’t true, ironfur has higher defensive value than maul. You can delay ironfur to not overlap as much, that will reduce the loss to DR; spending rage on maul won’t.
Again; this is all PRE talent buff, so largely irrelevant now. Blizzard clearly agreed that before 2 days ago, maul was utterly terrible, which is why they completely removed the resource cost altogether while in no way increasing the opportunity cost or reducing the strength.
I mean… like I said, you can say 1+1 = banana if you want to; math doesn’t care if you say it wrong; it just is. Multiplicative terms are equivalent and interchangeable, that is something you probably get taught in grade 4 or so. Maybe you will get to it next year or something.
Yeaaaaah no.
The vast majority of damage that actually threatens a tank is physical, and the vast majority of that is auto-attack.
It was literally 2 days ago. Before maul was made free, it was garbage. Again; it is the subject of this discussion.
Nobody, not once, has claimed that maul post-update is not strong, or worth using, or can’t be used with ironfur. Before the change 3 days ago, the number of times you’d want to use maul AND ironfur is unbelievably low.
What kind of sociopath are you? God forbid people want to enjoy the games they play. You accuse me of being unreasonably negative about maul, but you actively want people to dislike the gameplay of their class? Why are you so invested in maul as the only option?
To be fair, supermarket checkout attendant pays pretty much minimum wage wherever you go.
I’m putting you on ignore now, because you are god damn annoying and a giant waste of time. The change has already happened, Blizzard agreed, the ability was a dog turd, and they buffed the ever loving hell out of it, so now it’s strong. It’s not what I want for the class, but that’s fine; I’ll continue to advocate for what I want while using an ability that turned from borderline unusable to strong, in a spec that went from meme tier to challenger for top of the pack. You can believe whatever you want to; people can read and even when you actively filter other people’s posts to paint yourself in the best light the context speaks for itself. Most people playing wow passed grade 4 mathematics long ago.
I tried to tell you, but you desperately wanted to be clever instead. Look where that got you. Not only were you wrong, but you based all your opinions based off this incorrect data. (Hence why they are trash)
I mean…. At the very least I can mangle twice in 6 seconds. With gore procs, stacking VC between maul uses isn’t exactly a stretch by any means. Just business as usual. Like… what?!
Not the point you think youre making.
Same ones that better druids than you have recommended. Maul isn’t as bad as you’ve made it out to be. Not before, and certainly not now, as you have agreed to several times already. Just being defiant for the lols, I guess?
…When you pretend all damage is physical and absorbs dont exist? Maybe.
Have fun being delusional.
Proof you lack vision! I told you it was coming. Others did too.
Right? Yet here you are crying about the class and its core abilities you clearly hate.
I hope this expansion is truly awful for you. Sincerely.
Another one bites the dust!
Taking the cowards road because you were too “clever” to see your own mistakes. I can definitely see how that gets annoying.
Says the guy who clearly has a low opinion of grocery workers and manual labourers who are just trying to earn an honest wage.
Not only are your opinions trash. So are you as a person.
Since bfa bear has been trash when compared to other tanks…
I know u havent played bear basically at all but cmon man.
Plus the incarn playstyle is entirely garbage aswell most bears agree with
Since it kept bear in the state it was in of only being strong in incarn and garbage outside.
It was like this in bfa and sl.
Only season that bear even did allright in, being season 2, sl was entirely due too the extra shielding, healing, and dmg from torments. The extra stats made bear useable. Hoping for a seasonal affix to make a spec work is a horrible way of doing things.
Season 3 and 4 bear felt horrible in keys and in single target raid encounters due to that same problem of just not having anything outside of incarn.
Ok well… that’s four years. Not six. And of those four years theses been some considerable highs and lows.
Corruptions in bfa for example. Probably the most fun I’ve ever had playing guardian.
It was beyond ridiculous what we were able to accomplish. All kinds of weird builds. Stacking Vers, staring mastery. Stacking twilight dev!!! Sure that’s just another borrowed power, but damn was it ever fun, and by no means were guardians held back or bottom teir because of it it. Quite the opposite.
Tank runs in nyalotha….
Good times!
I’m just saying. Maybe try and be less cynical about everything’s that’s been happening and just lay back and enjoy the ride. Try something out for fun. Play with it. It’s pre patch for crying out loud. This is when things get weird and the game is broken in the best ways. You’re missing out on all that and sounding a whole lot like zilerstram. Dude is straight up miserable about everything.
I just get carried away sometimes when people come here with asinine ideas. I like to put the screws to them and watch them pop. I let them argue themselves into a corner and let things just kind of unravel themselves naturally. A slow burn, if you will.
Look at Kangaroo Coins for example…. Guy was so sure of himself about all the reasons he “hates maul”, all the while going off into great detail about why execute “feels Good”.
Turns out that with a little bit of free time and a bit of trolling, I was able to force him to to realize all by himself that not only does maul do everything execute does, it does it better.
Except that zero percent of what you just said is correct. Repeating things ad nauseum doesn’t make them true. The one and only thing you were correct on in the thread is that maul with 5 points does more damage than execute baseline.
That is the full list. You think you’re making points and winning arguments that you just aren’t. It’s full blown delusion.
Walking away from a discussion with an insane person is not cowardice, it’s self-preservation. There is nothing to be gained from discussion with you. You are the worst possible intersection of dunning-kruger in full force, combined with mean-spirited discussion style. You drag people down to your level and then keep replying forever, while saying nothing worth hearing.
The tree updates today are lame. Berserk/Incarnation talents spread all the way out so you can’t reasonably pick them all up. Thrash talents spread out so you can’t pick them all up, and same for arcane and Moonfire talents. The tree is still a mess. At least I was having fun before today, even if it wasn’t the most engaging playstyle. These changes haven’t made it feel better, and I’d say it is worse. Spent the past couple weeks playing something just for it to change big time again.
Yes, I’ve made some enemies on these forums, but they typically are people like yourself who come here and post childish things like ….
An entire train of mind formed around false data. Even with the new data presented, You still fumbled around like a fool attempting to cheapen its value.
