Did you see the encounter description of Grong for the raid?
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Because the gorillas want to keep it in their home to stay intelligent. The goblins want to take it all, and the Zandalari don’t care to tell them “no”. It’s not a big leap.
First of all, you don’t have to be in constant proximity to Kajamite to keep your intelligence. Kezan has been mined dry of Kajamite for hundreds of years and yet the formerly Dimwitted Goblins are still relatively hyper intelligent.
And secondly, there is still a tremendous leap. You are framing it in the context that the Gorillas attack the Goblins after attempting to take the Kajamite, which is wholly untrue. You only need to take a look at the questline, the Goblins aren’t even mining the Kajamite. They are caging the gorillas and skinning them, while riding around on Dinosaurs.
It’s like they completely forgot why they even went there.
Not to mention Grong and friends only kill Goblins after the Goblins started killing the gorillas for no reason.
The fighting did not start because they’re taking the Kajamite, that’s something you fabricated to try and make sense out of a nonsense situation. Which is a sentiment I understand but doesn’t help the inquiry.
Yeah Zombie Gorilla fight. I didn’t partake in the PTR, but I presume Grong dies and Bwonsamdi brings him back for the Horde. Unless you’re asking me because you are referring to the wording of the description. Where he is this kind Gorilla, and the Horde are essentially monsters torturing this noble spirit into fighting his friends?
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My best guess is that the Bilgewater Goblins figured that intelligent gorillas would be worth a fortune on the black market. And there is no question that Gallywix would betray his allies for a fast buck. He’s already looting Atal’Dazar.
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This is a feasible reason, the issue is no groundwork for this was actually set at all. That can only be theory-crafted for the sake of Blizzard, there are plenty of reasons that could potentially be thought of. But I am wholly against writing the story for the story team. It should be clear why they began attacking the Gorillas.
Though I also have to say in terms of what exists in World of Warcraft, with all the magical beasts and other sentient animals. I don’t find talking intelligent Gorillas to be worth the black market. In terms of species becoming intelligent, that’s not an uncommon occurence. Murlocs are a popular species, and have been known to be turned into pets in the past. So why don’t we just capture Jinyu who are evolved Murlocs and sell them on the black market?
Not to mention I’m sure a captured Loa would go for a million talking Gorillas, most are too powerful to subjugate, but Jani is not.
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The Grong storyline only makes sense if you assume, as Blizzard apparently does, that the Horde are villains who will just do bad stuff because it’s what villains do. Clearly, they didn’t feel they needed any story justification beyond, “The Horde are bad, so obviously they would now be torturing and enslaving the gorillas that the player previously helped make a deal with.”
Looking for reasons implies you think the Horde consists of actual characters with motivations beyond “be EEEEVUL.” In the minds of Blizzard’s writers, it clearly doesn’t.
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Watch it, Richmon. Or else Jani WILL bite you in the butt and steal your boot.
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Not as intelligent as they used to be. Because at the height of their brainpower, their inventions made sense, they worked, and exploding was not a standard assumed feature.
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Haha don’t get me wrong. I love Jani, but I’m just making a point.
That’s why I said relatively, I know their intelligence has been decreasing, but it is not instantaneous was my point.
I have to agree with this sentiment. More often than not we are doing things that can be taken as evil without reason. Like, if there were an explicit benefit to the Horde that is clear and simple than I’m on board. I love Lawful Evil characters, they are typically complex and have depth. However, I abhor chaotic Evil characters, which is more the alignment we fall on.
I keep reaching out to the community about these things, trying to find reason because I don’t want to assume the Horde is just villains. I can play a villain fine, but I don’t want to be told I’m not a villain and then you only write my faction as villains.
With the only deviation from this villain trope is a handful of people repeating “honor” and shaking their head, while still doing the dishonorable thing or allowing it to happen.
I swear if you turned the word “honor” from main Horde characters for BFA into a drinking game you would die of alcohol poisoning.
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I find them interesting too, but I don’t want to play one in WoW.
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Oh I wasn’t saying that Horde should be turned into Lawful Evil. I was saying that if you’re going to write the majority of the Horde as evil, Lawful is at least better than Chaotic. Which is where Sylvanas has been falling on the alignment chart for this expansion at least. In the past it was do evil things for a good reason, now its just do it for a laugh or to sass your enemy. Not particularly interesting.
Though I enjoy playing evil characters from time to time, perhaps in SWTOR or something. In WoW I’d rather not be forced to be one as well.
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To be fair, Goblins have been consistently over the top greedy.
Yeah but not over the top bloodthirsty. You can take all the Kajamite without killing the Gorillas. And there are plenty of non-sentient Gorillas that you can poach, their hides are the same.
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Sylvanas is a near picture perfect representative of lawful evil, actually. She built the Forsaken around her from the ground up, designed their culture and belief system to reflect what she wants them to be, and is mercilessly cruel to any threat to her position of authority. As warchief she is using her political power to wage a war on her terms both because she sees the Alliance as a threat to her rule and for an ulterior motive that we do not yet know, but she hasn’t actually done anything truly chaotic. Even burning Teldrassil had a justification in her mind that revolved around maintaining her personal authority and self interests.
I really can’t think of anything she has done in her career that wouldn’t constitute lawful evil. Everything she says and does is in the pursuit of her goal and she twists her society through her legal right to rule to achieve said goal.
Gallywix is the one who is chaotic evil. He is in a position of authority but he doesn’t care about it. He cares about his personal wealth which by proxy of goblin law makes him leader, but he’d sooner sell his own people into slavery than actually have to deal with managing his empire. He uses his immense wealth only to gain more wealth and to do whatever crazy, poorly thought out scheme he has up his sleeve next.
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- Burning down Teldrassil was Chaotic Evil. Lawful Evil would stick with her original plan of Capturing the Capital and holding the people hostage.
- Breaking Lady Ashvane out of prison.
- Resurrecting Derek Proudmoore.
Derek Proudmoore and Lady Ashvane fall under the same reason of being chaotic that is serves no actual purpose to do this. She’s just sassing the enemy.
Gallywix is definitley Chaotic Evil I agree but just because he acts on his alignment more often doesn’t mean Sylvanas isn’t on the same chart. I’ll agree she doesn’t do everything Chaotic Evil, but she falls more on that side than Lawful this expansion.
Old Sylvanas before BFA was Lawful Evil, I would agree with that 100%, but in BFA she is Chaotic.
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- It wasn’t. She didn’t burn Teldrassil for the sake of burning it. It was a calculated decision that she believed furthered her goal of weakening her enemy.
- Breaking Lady Ashvane out of prison was a political move to give herself an advantage over a shared enemy. Classic lawful evil.
- She plans to use Derek as an assassin to remove a threat to her power. The use of assassins is again a classic lawful evil move.
Everything Sylvanas does is in the interest of maintaining her authority, destroying those who oppose that authority, and ensuring those under her bow to her authority. Sylvanas can’t really be described as chaotic while she is the head of state and maintaining a totalitarian regime through clever use of propaganda and aggressively justifying her every action as cold logic no matter how heinous. That is the purest expression of lawful evil.
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Lawful evil doesn’t equal stupid. If she had captured Teldrasil and taken the population hostage, it would have given her a massive bargaining chip. The Alliance would have agreed to almost any terms to ensure their safety. Instead, she gave the Alliance every reason and justification to wipe the Horde off the face of the planet out of pure spite.
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Lawful evil can be just as stupid as lawful good. Alignment doesn’t factor in if a plan is good or not, it merely factors in whether or not there was a plan in mind.
Sylvanas very clearly explains to us that she burned Teldrassil because she no longer felt the original plan was viable. While she doesn’t admit fault she miscalculated, redid the math, and came to the conclusion that with Malfurion alive holding Teldrassil was no longer possible.
So she burned it with the express goal of convincing the Alliance to attack her full tilt so she could lay a trap. Which she did.
All actions that are very much not chaotic.
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don’t talk to me about the alliance war campaign
I’m not going to get into why Ashvane and Derek isn’t really a plan, but a way to Sass your enemy. I already did that in a separate thread so I’ll shoot you the link, so this one goes back to Monkey Business.
As for Teldrassil we aren’t going to agree on that I suppose. You see it as a calculated decision, I see it as throwing out a calculated plan for the sake of sassing one soldier. Don’t give me the whole it was to Kill Hope thing. If that were her real intention, she would have beheaded Malfurion instead of leaving it to Saurfang and paraded his corpse on a ship as they sailed to conquer Teldrassil.
Rest assured what there isn’t much planning behind anything Sylvanas does this expansion. Again here is that other thread Sylvanas and Ashvane - #3 by Tausnor-moon-guard
No she didn’t. I’ve heard this theory, and that’s all it is. She never tells us that she thought the old plan was no longer viable, you’re going off hearsay rather than what was actually established. Especially, because this was before she finds out Malfurion is still alive. So she couldn’t have factored in Malfurion being alive because she made the decision mere moments after she left him to be executed by Saurfang.
I see why you think it wasn’t chaotic now, but that’s not actually what happened.
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