M+ already has pathetic class representation, why did you even give classes specific buffs when scrolls are a thing?
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because scrolls are weaker.
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30% weaker? Thatâs still plenty enough to make the classes not worth bringing along.
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no⌠they are going to choose the stronger option if the player is on par with their other standards, like ilvl.
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So say both players A+ B are equal dps, If they can get the buff from player A on a scroll, plus the class utility from player B, how the heck is player A ever the stronger option?
Canât really compare them like that, if player A doesnât have specific utility that the group needs, then they donât. Of course you would take B in that case, unless Aâs utility and scroll overshadow the 30% missing from B.
⌠That is the entire point of the OP, the buffs covered by the scrolls are part of the utility of that player. By offering 70% of that buff on a consumable it invalidates that utility. Please provide any concrete example you have where that -30% would deter taking a different class/specâs utility and the scroll over the full buff? Because the M+ representation certainly does not support your claim.
There are no scrolls for the physical and magical damage debuffs and yet no one takes those specs for the debuff.
The buffs are simply not necessary unless you are looking to parse on a raid encounter or you are choosing between two completely equal classes. Also somethings just shouldnât require a specific class. Drums exist despite 3 classes being able to Lust (by comparison only 1 class can give the buff) so of course they will have a scroll for it.
You are also mistaken as the consumables were the condition on which the buffs came back. The buffs (which were originally far more available among specs) were removed in Warlords because they punished groups for not having specific classes. The consumable versions are here to stay.
At the end of the day though the buffs donât help everyone (ie AP buff wonât help your healer, Int buff wonât help melee, stam buff doesnât improve DPS). Due to the disproportionate performance of certain specs and ilvls in M+ class buffs are largely ignored. Many people would rather the DH who can burn groups of mobs than the Warrior who could buff the Rogue. Removing scrolls wonât change that.
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Frankly itâs nonsense so few classes have the buffs. Warlocks used to be able to give the int buff, but they took that away when they took away AI, but we never got it back for some reason.
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I dont believe I said they were? I also never said the buffs were necessary. I dont see why it matters that theres no scrolls for the physical and magic damage amp. And I also dont see why itd matter that the buffs dont help everyone. And Heroism is too strong to only have it available to a few classes. Are you even replying to the right post?
Heroism is too strong but 10% of your main stat isnât? Sure bloodlust is stronger while itâs up, 30% haste for 50 seconds, but 10% of your main stat for the ENTIRE dungeon is FAR stronger.
If you donât like it, we can always make your buff 3% and get rid of the scrolls.
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All 3 classes with the buffs have brutally low representation in M+, you donât think any part of that low representation is their âutilityâ being tied up in buffs that consumables can provide? Hell you even mention Drums, you donât think shaman would have better representation in M+ if drums didnât exist? There is even a battle res coming to engineers in 8.1, and if they hadnât already spread battle res to hell and back that might affect representation.
If as you say, âThe consumable versions are here to stay.â then further utility should be added to those classes that are flatly being robbed by the consumables. If one of the conditions of adding back the buffs was that consumables could provide a slightly weaker version, then they have failed as an added utility to those classes.
And yes, of course the gaps in performance is the main driver in class representation in M+, but that is supposedly being addressed to some degree in hotfixes, patch class changes, and continued efforts to bring said performances closer in line. If the gap in class utility isnât considered as well, then it will continue to skew towards certain classes/specs regardless of even performance.
No, no i donât think shamans would have better representation if drums didnât exist. I think mages would have better representation but then they arenât exactly hurting now are they? I think if drums didnât exist Warlocks would have even WORSE representation than they do now, because no one would EVER take us over a mage.
You arenât being robbed, the people who donât have the buffs but used to are being robbed.
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Yes exactly, heroism gets you through a boss fight you might not normally have been able to get through otherwise. Youre not just attacking a dummy in keys, more overall damage isnt necessarily best.
Bull and you know it. If youâre reaching bosses you canât complete without lust, then the keystone is high enough that the time it takes to kill the trash is what will kill your key, not wiping on the boss. 10% extra time spent on EVERYTHING will kill the timer.
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I doubt you actually believe what youre saying, do you know how much time a wipe wastes?
Depends entirely on the instance, and the boss, as you well know. Do you know how much time you spend on trash in most dungeons? Even on tyrannical week, itâs more of the dungeon than the bosses are.
Thereâs no scroll version of the physical or magical debuffs and yet no one takes those classes solely for the debuff because at the end of the day thatâs not why people pick certain classes.
Youâre running a dungeon and you need a lock gate? Okay one position is filled. You are not going to worry about an Int buff to be sure the Lock does more DPS you might just require a higher ilvl. This is how players pick their groups. No one cares enough about the buffs outside of raids. There just arenât enough spots and buffs can be made up for with higher ilvl reqs.
Not really. The Mage utility is in TW as well as spellsteal, CC, etc. The Int buff is only helpful for heals or Warlocks (since the other Int classes are grossly underrepresented). It will not help most groups as much since melee is better in m+ and you have to have 2 caster DPS to even see a minor benefit.
Warriors are just not as useful as a Rogue who can stealth or a DH so people take those instead.
No because Mages and Hunters are better. Also Lust is only useful for burning specific bosses before mechanics become an issue; itâs not a major DPS gain over an entire dungeon. Until thereâs incentive to run a 15+ no one cares as much about Lust.
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It seems like you are claiming that scrolls donât get used in M+, either at lower keys or at all. That just isnât true. Youâve tried pretty hard to nullify Arcane Intellect, mostly with the argument that no one takes caster dps, which, while it seems true to some degree at high keys, yikes as a reason and hopefully that changes.
And you are either pretending Fort and Battle Shout arenât used aggressively or are purposefully not discussing them as it makes your entire argument look feeble. Also, really doubt that anything +10 or higher that gets run, is ever run without drums/lust used as frequently as possible, these are timed runs, anything to cut time is useful.
Iâm sure you will pop back in and claim no one uses flasks or consumables of any kind and that everyone clears every trash pack and that Shrine is the easiest dungeon. Well have at it. You still havenât counter-argued for a moment the fact that the buffs were added back to the game to specifically give those classes receiving them more utility(see: Mark of the Wild, which got deleted from BFA beta because Druids already had too much utility), and that the consumable scrolls that apply a 70% version of the buffs are thoroughly NEGATING that added utility.